Re: [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web


Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and therefore
not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I was
replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
better (which I had an extremely open mind about).

The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.

As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.

I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake. I just
want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies, and if
the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP saying
they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not worth
explaining things.

I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about

If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <cajhne gmail com> wrote:

From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the

"I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was just
justifying me complaining.

Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
become a GIMP dev?

What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts of
wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.

This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)

Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.

Just an outsider's perspective.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
gimp-developer-list <gimp-developer-list gnome org> wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com> wrote:

Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know
people can read it.

Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).

I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.

If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.

Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that
know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's
don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as
of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with

I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:

"Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."

Please consider rethinking your interaction here.

Good day to you.


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>

OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.

It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
guess it's you against the world.

Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
reply--if they
approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your
is OK?).

I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
emails sent to those list.

I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't
much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),

Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
the relevant threads.

Exhibit A:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
wanted to
tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
ground with him just a few days earlier.

This is this very thread:

There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use
GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say
lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing I
in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".

I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the

And Exhibit B:

[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
Even if you win, you lose...

This is this very thread:

Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend
shocking 3
minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining,
patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized
official 2.10.8 announcement.

"mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
very same thread --
-- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes

And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:

"I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of
tagging a
release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the
version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart

save for our friend /u/Unchayned <>


There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.


and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for
actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself
but for other people as well.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:

Hi Niccolo,

There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
conversation with people who come with preconceptions about
something they
are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
drawing conclusions.

When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to
we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should
kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos
abuse containing expletives.

I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.


чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>:


Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that
a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing
that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role,
makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.


A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've
had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
exchange is
from the Reddit thread at
While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What
Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than
ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade
of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
because, bla
bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying
that I had
no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither
is he
more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just
of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
which is
what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas
with people
that have unapproved opinions.

I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be
sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
didn't say
nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally

Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
attacked around
Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:

A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg
came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
wanted to
tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
ground with him just a few days earlier.

Another message:
[...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
people had
dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
Even if you win, you lose...

Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like
"oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it",
or using
"we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being
important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users,
what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome
stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I
found out
that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical
This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
developer but
not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending
to be a
developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from
communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.

I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.
It's easy
to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate
users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really
talk to,
because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome
you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a
into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the
dev team,
since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled

I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre
from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since
I would
assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe)
you guys
are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
someone who
either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.




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