Re: Meeting Minutes Published - March 29th, 2011

[Bastien Nocera <hadess hadess net>]

On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 17:42 +0100, Martyn Russell wrote:
> On 15/04/11 14:45, Bastien Nocera wrote:
> > On Fri, 2011-04-15 at 11:39 +0100, Martyn Russell wrote:
> > We wanted to discuss with someone involved in that space what our
> > options were.It's an informal chat about what could be done. Andreas
> > took on the action item, and chose to talk with Ryan because he knows
> > Ryan well.
> >
> > If I had taken on the action item, I'd probably have asked Robert
> > McQueen or Murray Cumming because I know them well, and have had plenty
> > of interaction with them.
> 
> This does really just illustrate what I am trying to point out. Doesn't 
> it make more sense to have a mailing list for all companies involved in 
> GNOME to discuss things like this instead of asking specific people from 
> specific companies? You would get much more feedback and a more general 
> consensus.

That's backwards. We're in early discussion about what we should do to
engage the companies. So, yes, having a mailing-list for all those
interested companies would certainly be helpful. Having a "directory" of
companies on the developer.gnome.org website was also mentioned.

This is the sort of ideas that we're looking to get some information
about, eg. what means of communication would be best to engage the
companies in the first place.
<snip>
> > He's not representing anyone, and he won't be a decision maker in the
> > process. The representatives would be contacted once we have a more
> > accomplished idea about this.
> 
> What's to decide?

How we want to engage the companies to start discussing the problems we
mentioned.

> The representatives which Ryan informs you about?
> 
> Idea about offering services? Surely asking many people yields better 
> results than asking just one person?
> 
> > But, at the end of the day, you can also help yourself by providing us
> > with your feedback, or better, stepping up to the plate and do the work
> > to fill those needs and help us help you.
> 
> Gladly, just let me know what you want feedback on. What work is needed?
> 
> I was actually planning on doing something with Stormy during the past 
> year, but never got around to it (that's my fault of course).
> 
> > Ranting and raving about how we want to have an informal chat with
> > someone about a topic you might be interested is counter-productive.
> 
> Where did I rant?
> 
> I actually suggested a more open forum to help you get that "informal 
> chat" from more sources to help you make a more informed decision.
> 
> > Returning to the topic at hand. Do any of the companies you mentioned
> > provide developer support for GTK+? I've had the experience of providing
> > developer support for Red Hat (that did include fixing Motif bugs...),
> 
> Yes.
> 
> We certainly do of course.
> 
> I am confident Collabora and Igalia do or have, perhaps even Openismus. 
> In the end, unless you ask *us* how can you know? I am guessing based on 
> rumour and upstream contributions. You can't know for sure without 
> approaching companies.
> 
> > and most of the questions were about:
> > - migration from one platform to another
> 
> Do you have more context here, or an example even?

In my case, mostly migrating from Solaris to Linux APIs. In the case of
GTK+ apps, I'd expect, migrating my app from Windows to Linux.

> > - best practices when needing to change the implementation
> 
> We can provide that (if you mean specific code bases like GTK+). Kris 
> Rietveld (from Lanedo) even did a talk about it last year at GUADEC 
> which might be available somewhere. He spoke about vendor specific 
> branches and working with upstream repositories.

No. Not GTK+'s implementation. The customer's application's
implementation.

> > - (possible) bugs found in underlying libraries that (might) need
> > fixing, usually caused by bad or lacking documentation, or actual bugs.
> 
> What's the question here?

I think there's quite a bit of confusion there about what developer
support is, so I'll rephrase it. It's gtk-app-devel-list or
StackExchange with somebody on the other end that's being paid to answer
you, and that can be sued if they don't deliver. Via e-mail. Or phone.
Or through a web interface.

> > All of this is quite a different proposition from providing a turn-key
> > finished application, especially with the depth of the stack we provide.
> 
> Not sure what you're saying here?
> 
> > I'm waiting to hear about your ideas on this.
> 
> The above is, at best, hard to interpret. If you have a formal list of 
> things to ask, please make it public here and I can reply certainly.

Do you, or any other companies in the GNOME eco-system provide developer
support as defined above? If not, then Andreas doesn't need to speak to
Ryan, and the problem is solved. We wouldn't have a good case to edge
companies that write their software in-house towards GTK+.

Cheers