On Wed, 2012-04-04 at 13:32 +0200, Christian Hilberg wrote: > Hi Milan, > > thanks a lot for joining us and for writing the nice summary! > This is much appreciated. If the mail thread becomes too long > and overly complicated, it may make sense to drop the findings > into a wiki page and work it out from there. > > First of all, no, the things discussed here are not going to be > easy, and it raises the question what Evolution actually wants > to be. Does it want to be a fully offline-capable PIM/groupware > client? That means, does it want to support backends which are or > strive to be? > > Which is the long-term vision for Evolution in this regard? > > > Am Mittwoch 04 April 2012, um 12:24:58 schrieb Milan Crha: > > On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 13:33 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote: > > > On Tue, 2012-04-03 at 19:10 +0200, Christian Hilberg wrote: > > > > Just rough thinking, nothing elaborate as yet - I'll be meditating > > > > this. :) > > > > > > Rough thinking here too. I'll let it simmer. > > > > Hi, > > this thread is getting quite complicated, and I confess I'm rather lost > > here (the final outcome should be clear, right). But to summarize which > > things are discussed here a bit (or better those I understood): > > > > a) Add an explicit method to synchronize local changes into the server > > b) Add some mechanism to ask user for conflict resolution during a) > > c) Tell backend to work in "offline mode" - do no network operations > > d) Notify client about current "offline mode" being used by the backend > > That pretty much sums it up. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ad a) There is agreed about the method addition, and I agree too. Maybe > > a different method prototype would be used (more parameters, see below). > > I suppose, you still tries to write the changes to the server as soon as > > possible, when in online mode, right? It makes sense, I'm only checking. > > Trying to bulk-sync as soon as network comes back online may interfere > with the user's planned workflow (just reading latest mails on a shaky > line), so I would suggest to either leave that to the user (by pressing > the sync button), or to provide a config option. The latter could also > be done on a per-backend basis. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ad b) This is quite complicated, the backend cannot rely on gtk+, > > because it would bring the dependency on the factory and the factory may > > not depend on the gtk+, it should be runnable without live desktop, only > > from a terminal. Correct me if I'm wrong. The idea of "another process > > taking care of the user interaction" is, apart of quite complicated, > > also not easy to do, what if you run the server without live desktop, or > > if you run on thin clients, or ... I'm afraid there can be many ways how > > to break this approach. Thus, what about adding a DBus signal on the > > backend for conflict resolution, something like: > > void resolve_sync_conflict ( > > guint sync_op_id, > > const gchar *server_object, > > const gchar *local_object); > > which backend will throw and the client side should response through > > something like this method: > > void sync_conflict_resolved ( > > guint sync_op_id, > > ESyncConflictResolution resolution); > > where ESyncConflictResolution will contain values like: > > Unknown > > ServerWins > > LocalWins > > ... (maybe more, Christian may advise better) > > Of course, the client part should implement this, which is basically > > undoable for all of them (and some even do not use gtk or any user > > interaction at all), thus I would add one parameter to the "synchronize" > > method, the ESyncConflictResolution value, which will pick the desired > > strategy. If it is "Unknown", then the backend can use the signal and > > wait for the method to resolve conflicts (better name from "Unknown" > > would be "Ask"). Of course, clients without user interface will not call > > the "synchronize" method, most likely. > > > > The resolve_sync_conflict() uses strings for objects, and based on the > > EClient type it's either ECalComponent or EVCard as string. > > You are right, it is too easy to forget that E-D-S better not depend > on UI. As for evolution-kolab, if there is no client connected, then > no synchronize() action would be triggered, hence no sync conflict would > occur. Only if there is a client actually requesting objects or a server > synchronization, then the backend would become active and actually *do* > something. Otherwise it would be sitting idle and not be trying to keep > up with server changes (object changed on server -- backend pulls -- > object is changed back on server -- backend pulls --- ... I think a lazy > approach would be the better one here). > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ad c) The mailer part does this in global, not per-account bases. Maybe > > the client may have this done in the same way. Nonetheless, in a > > multi-client environment you may make sure that the clients will not > > fight on this (when one requests backend to stay offline while the other > > will require it to run in online). Note the factory uses the same > > backend for each client it connects to it, that's why they can fight. > > The current "online" property works fine for me for these purposes, but > > if you really want, then rename it. Still, this should be, from my point > > of view, just a preference given by the client (user) whether the > > backend should or should not do any network operations. You've right > > that there should be distinguishable whether the offline state was > > initiated by a user, or by connection issues (wifi disconnected, vpn > > dropped and so on), thus the backend can decide whether the connection > > it has currently opened with the server is still alive and it can close > > it properly - otherwise it would just timeout, and these timeouts aren't > > short. New network-related property comes in mind. > > Just adding a few bits: If a user wants the backend to be in offline mode, > that would be a good time to do a last synchronize() operation with the > server, before actually switching into offline mode, i.e. not doing network > operations any more (though network may still be available). > OTOH, if a network failure inhibits further network operations, without > the user having explicitly requested offline mode, then the backends may > need to know this. It may make a difference for a backend whether it has > reached offline mode in an ordered manner (last sync with server was all > good, yes Sir, going offline now), or the offline operation was forced > upon the backend by a network outage (error condition), where some precaution > may be needed. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > ad d) For cases like "network unavailable" or "the network available, > > but the destination server unreachable" the backend can notify clients > > about its online mode. (There is a "special" case when you connect to > > the server for the first time, thus the backend may report an error, > > rather than running in offline mode against the server address which is > > not reachable, because of typo in its URL.) There is currently a > > mechanism to notify about onlinity by the backend towards its clients, > > the only thing is that evolution itself doesn't indicate it in any way > > to the user in its UI. For example CalDAV calendars can run online, and > > after it realizes the server is offline, they switch itself to offline > > mode (it doesn't have any offline mode implemented, it just prevents it > > from doing event changes - by setting itself to readonly mode too), and > > if it realizes later that the server is reachable again, then it > > connects to it and continues online. I do not think the network monitor > > would help here anyhow, the backend will only know for sure when it > > tries to connect. From my point of view, this property should be used > > only for indications on the client side, not to guess from it what > > backend can do and what not when its offline. There is also a "readonly" > > property, which serves for related purposes. > > As for evolution-kolab, if there is a network outage, there is an implicit > offline mode, in that the objects stay in the local offline-write-cache > (or their deletion is recorded, for that matter - moving objects around > between Kolab folders just means adding it to one and deleting it from > the other folder - this is recorded by the offline-write-cache). The failure > to write the object to the server is then reported to the client, that's it. > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > One more thing, which I didn't get is, what to do when you connect to > > the server and you have objects in your offline cache to be uploaded to > > the server. Christian said they are not trying to upload them, but it > > may also not try to get changes from the server, because that's the > > point where the conflicts happen, say when server has modified the same > > event I modified in offline. Still, you want to get changes from the > > server right after connected to it, to show new events to the user, but > > you cannot synchronize? I would say it's unexpected by most of the users > > (there is opened a bug report where reporter claims that the backend > > updates its changes too often, when he has there set a refresh for one > > day (I do not recall the exact interval value), but the backend updates > > with server changes right after being opened, which is unexpected for > > him - I guess it's rather rare case). > > I guess finding a good balance here is difficult. Supplying the user with > a dedicated sync button is a good thing, and should be done, but you're right, > bugreports will come from users who forgot to press the button. A refresh > timeout with a sensible preset seems to be a good thing, too. Maybe it would > be worth it that the refresh can simply be disabled without changing the preset, > that would help users who go on travel and who know that they'll be on shaky > lines for the next week (is it that way already? /me needs to check). > As for evolution-kolab, sadly, there is no good way to do a "quick check" for > changes, at least I do not have an idea how one could implement one, since the > server does not do any kind of bookkeeping for the clients. One can check IMAP > UIDs, any change on them in a PIM folder indicates that a sync is needed, but > you do have to search for the changed objects then. It could slow down the > open() operation for a cal or book dramatically if the sync was done there, > that's why I did not put a sync point there for evo-kolab (though it could > easily be done, but it may create the impression that the cal/book itself > hangs... and is opening the cal/book cancellable? I don't think so). Once NetworkManager gets support for different network locations (e.g. "home" vs. "office" vs. "the rest of the world"), it might be nice to automatically disable refresh when not on "home" or "office" networks. Save the user having to press a button when they go travelling (or, for example, press the button every time they get their laptop out on the train to work). Philip > > OK, I made this slightly longer and I'm sorry if I wrote anything > > obvious up there (which I surely did). In that case just consider this > > as a little summary for this thread. > > Thanks again for the summary Milan. It helps a lot. Seems to me that > these issues are much worth the discussion, and it is better to do it > here than on IRC (it is easier to cherry-pick the bits from mail archive > than from IRC log). :-) > > _______________________________________________ > evolution-hackers mailing list > evolution-hackers gnome org > To change your list options or unsubscribe, visit ... > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/evolution-hackers
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