Re: [Evolution-hackers] Found key binding bug, need hint!

[Roland Orre <roland orre gmail com>]

Thanks for the hints, I'll see what I can do.

On 7/4/05, Not Zed <notzed ximian com> wrote:
> Well it simply means you find it too difficult for you to use.  It
> doesn't mean you can't use it; dont overstate the problem.

OK, it can still be used as an emergency solution. In a similar
way as I may even use e.g. notepad when helping someone
with windoze problems or use a knife as a screwdriver now
and then.

A tool for serious usage, needs to be fitted for best performance.

> I'm a programmer too, i dont find it much of a challenge to change
> what keys i use based on the software i'm using.  Or an ir remote
> for a tv,

Well, I use the remote a couple of times a week. I'm editing text
programs, documents, mails about 10 hours a day.

Would you expect e.g. a concert pianist to easily accept a piano where
some of the  keys have been moved to a new place?

And, I have adapted. There are plenty of subsets of emacs keying
in many different systems. The essential is that the fundamental
keys are present. But for e.g. editing mails with the non
emacs mode in evolution I don't even know what keys to use.

The only keys I've found working are the arrow keys for moving
and I can use home and end and delete.  Keys which are very
far away from my ordinary typing, keys which I have hardly
used at all during 25 years. You hardly expect me to move
my hand that far every time I need to move the position in text,
do you? That would be going back to the most rudimentary and
inefficient interface for doing the most basic thing on a computer.
OK, if I wrote a few mails a week I wouldn't care either, but I
write certainly about 10 mails a day. OK, this for instance I'm
writing with gmail, where the gtk emacs keys works...
For now if it's a short reply I write it directly, but if  it is longer
I have to type it in emacs and then paste it into evolution.

I think ideally gtk shouldn't have only one editing alternative
as now. An application should preferrably be able to invoke
custome specified editing client. Like when you run pine,
then you can start emacs instead of using the default pico.

The keys used in emacs are developed with a lot of brain
work. They are made so you can type efficient, without having
to move your hand far around. Apart from the work and the time
it takes to move the hand you also have to reposition the hand
on the keyboard, which is distracting. When you are used to
emacs keys then you never have to move your fingers more
than a few cm.

> or different door knobs for that matter.  I use vi and less many times a
> day, live in emacs, and use the evolution editor all the time too.  I
> use them all differently based on their interfaces without even thinking
> about it.

Some people are more fluent in different languages and can quickly
adapt to a new spoken langauge for instance. I have used several
different keyboards where some keys are placed differently and
have been able to adapt after some time, but those changes
doesn't imply new big moves of the hand for instance.
But when e.g. ^A,^F,^B,^P,^N,^E,^K the most basic keys
of your spinal cord suddenly don't work, then it is very annoying. 

> > Obviously evolution does some weird things with the keys as the
> > keys don't work at all in the composer header. Apart from when
> > I get a meny, like when having several destinations to choose from,
> > then the emacs key bindings are suddenly working again in the
> > header.
> 
> Well, this may not be related directly to evolution as such, again each
> widget is a separate object, which may have different bindings or
> different binding bugs.

Yeah, the whole keybinding/mousebinding principle in gtk-gnome/kde-
needs to be looked at I think. It has worked quite well in the unix world
with the X and emacs conventions and such. Now there are a lot
of influences coming from the windows world, a world where people
are not used to be able to customize things in the way which suits
them best. It is a terrifying danger if this philosophy will "take over"
also in the unix/linux world. Computers should adapt to people not
the other way around. This is what free in free software means for me.

Anyway, I'm grateful for your hints. This week I've been busy so far
but I'll have a look at those places you suggested. I got a suggestion
to look on more recent sources, but then there may be other
problems, I think I better solve it in the version I have, then
port the code to the latest CVS-version and then supply the
patches to you. I think I'll have a look upon attaching a custom
editing client as well. It would be cool to start a real emacs
client when you type an email for instance.

> ...
> Also, things in the menu's can't be overriden.  e.g. ctrl-p will
> activate the print menu.  A couple of reasons for this, one is that the
> middleware we're using - bonobo - wont let us, and another is that
> customisable menu bindings are generally thought of as a bad ui idea
> anyway - one of the few things in the gnome ui guidelines i'd probably
> agree with.

That would really be a serious bug!!! 
I hope you are not speaking about evolution here... :)
Ctrl-p at least works for me in evolution, but noways only in 50 %
of the cases for the for mail composition.

In that first case  the menu is correct, that is "Select All" is empty
but the next time, when the keys have stopped working the menu
"Select All" now suddenly says "Ctrl+A".  Does this give any hint
if this is an evolution or a gtk problem ?

                   Best regards
                   Roland Orre