Re: [Epiphany] Re: Tabs options

On Sat, 2003-08-30 at 23:17, Nikolai Weibull wrote:
> * Mike <> [Aug, 30 2003 22:50]:
> >
> > the question is - what would you want this "better window manager" to
> > do?
> >
> Basically what window managers such as Ion, fluxbox, and ratpoison do,
> namely, manage the tabbing of related windows in the window manager.  I
> have always been a strong proponent of MDI and tabbing, only lately
> seeing that it should perhaps be up to the window manager to manage
> things like this.  I guess it's more or less an issue of having a
> capable desktop environment and window manager, or not.  We have a
> choice, no one is forced to use tabs in epiphany.  The only real problem
> is that having both multiple windows and tabs is that it complicates the
> interface.
> However, I personally believe that having the option of a MDI is
> warranted when one are dealing with similar documents, such as web
> pages.  They are often viewed together and thus having them grouped
> together seems logical.
> >
> > This is actually the point, If for instance, I have 8 browser windows, 6
> > files open in gedit etc, it is a lot easier in a tabbed view (two
> > entries on the taskbar)
> >
> The question is, is a taskbar that doesn't do grouping of windows
> belonging to the same process under one item in the bar, what one wants?
> It seems wrong somehow.  The whole idea of a taskbar has always seemed
> flawed to me, as it stand now anyway.
> >
> > Have you used the SDI in office2000 - it is HORRIBLE compared to
> > office97 (and this is windows, not tabs)
> >
> In my opinion, they are both rather horrible.  The few times I've used
> Office97 I've always felt that it was hard knowing what documents I had
> opened.  It was a bit easier in Office2000, when you had a separate
> top-level window for each document, and not worrying if any were hidden
> behind the one I was currently working with (I have only used Office2000
> once in my life-time, but anyway).
> >
> > The general effect is you have so many little instances in the taskbar,
> > that they are meaningless.
> >
> Again, a flaw in the way the taskbar handles windows, in my opinion.
> >
> > It was such a bavkwards step in usability, that I believe MS made it
> > optional in SP1
> >
> Heh, really?  OMG.  They really suck so much.  Can they never decide on
> one paradigm and stick to it?
> >
> > To explain further, I see it as a visually equivalent to the idea of
> > sorting stuff in sub-directories rther than in one directory.
> >
> Yes, this is definitely what makes MDI's nice.  In Windows it gets
> rather painful to Alt+Tab'ing through a lot of windows.  I'd rather tab
> to the top-level window, then Ctrl+Tab to the specific document I want.
> However, perhaps this should be done by the window manager instead.  Do
> it in one place, and do it well there.  Otherwise you wind up with a lot
> of different ways of dealing with it.  There is sadly no standard for
> what hotkeys allow you to move through tabs in an application, having it
> in one place, you wouldn't need one.
> >
> > My main gripe here, is that I cant see any overriding rational for the
> > HIG to dictate the use of SDI, where it is  less usable than MDI/tabbed.
> >
> No, certainly not.  This, however, shouldn't be the main point of this
> discussion.  The main point should be whether MDI's/Tabs are a good idea
> in any application.  This is, however, too general to discuss on this
> list, and in my opinion, the constant flood of messages to threads, such
> as this, on the topic, are getting a little bit annoying.

Curious - I brought up the subject in relation to epi, than marco
mentioned the HIG in relation to this. I honetly hadn't seen any similar
threads. (I have now posted on the general point to usability with my
asbestos mouse)

> Until someone comes up with a better paradigm, we are going to see tabs
> in epiphany.  It is that simple.  Tabs are, at the moment, the best way
> to manage multiple documents in a multi-document application.  Hopefully
> we will see changes in taskbar's and window manager's to do this for us.
> Lets realize that there are many things that are flawed with the way our
> windowing systems work and that discussing it in such a specific context
> such as this is rather pointless and won't lead to any real
> improvements.
> 	nikolai

This was really what I was getting at. Removing a very useful function
(tabs) because the HIG says that MDI should not be used when, especially
with the default WM, there is not a sensible alternative, is not the way
to go.

> --
> ::: name: Nikolai Weibull    :: aliases: pcp / lone-star / aka :::
> ::: born: Chicago, IL USA    :: loc atm: Gothenburg, Sweden    :::
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