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Re: Why is it so hard to do simple things? dia-list Digest, Vol 89, Issue 10

@Jasper Horn,
There is a lot of confusion within the FOSS community.  That one does not believe your assessment is correct 
is understandable in light of the many who state that they are creating their software primarily for their 
own use, and others who say that most programmers are doing it as a hobby, else they would charge for it.  In 
any case, I do not believe your points help our friend Andreas with his problem of perception.

The whole question boils down to the fact that the basic response is always to suggest that the user become a 
programmer and create a patch or improve the program another way.  That shows that the software creators are 
not interested in do that themselves, for whatever reason.  Most users do not want to become programmers, so 
such suggestions will always be viewed as harsh in the best light and insulting in the worst.

Edheldil put is succinctly when he stated "On the other hand, it's the best FOSS general diagramming tool we 
have (which is sad, but that's 
life)."  How very true, and it is the only reason that most people would even try to use it.

But what is worse is that the very confusion of intent I mentioned earlier drives too many back to micro$oft. 
 Now that is really what is sad.

Further, that a web site exists is in itself evidence of being promotional.  And where you wrote, "Also, keep 
in mind that they are doing something in their own way, and they are not necessarily wanting to do it as 
others may desire, since that is not their goal.", you actually are supporting my initial point as I stated 
to our friend.  Let us not be confused about the intent of FOSS programmers.

You also wrote, "Have you ever met a software company that is catering to every need of every single user?"  
The answer is "Yes, I have".  Further I was willing to pay for that high quality software because the 
programmers were commercial professionals whose product success depended upon the customer's satisfaction.  
Again, the point speaks for itself and agrees with what my initial points were to our friend, Andreas.  
Sadly, that is not the point of the FOSS community.

I always recommend that a person develop an understanding of the motives and standards of personal 
responsibility the programmers have toward their users.  If it is good and long term, then paying for that is 
most appropriate.  Those requirements are necessary to create good long-term and high quality software geared 
toward the user's needs; which should be the same as commercial goals.  That's all.

Let us not confuse the issue of free and paid.  In paid, one votes with their money, and in free, one votes 
with their programming skills.  The former is a better bet for the average user, and the latter is not a good 
deal for the average user at all.  Just like in any other product or service, half way done is not worth 
anything, but finished properly is worth everything.



On 09/09/2011 08:00 AM, dia-list-request gnome org wrote:

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Today's Topics:

1. Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things? dia-list Digest,   Vol     89, Issue 7 (Edheldil) 2. Re: 
dia components (Jasper Horn) 3. Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do simple things? dia-list Digest, Vol 
89, Issue 7 (Jasper Horn)


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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 09 Sep 2011 11:00:08 +0200 From: Edheldil<dia001 eowyn cz> To: discussions
about usage and development of dia <dia-list gnome org> Subject: Re: Dia: Why is it so hard to do
simple things? dia-list Digest,       Vol     89, Issue 7 Message-ID:<4E69D598 5010101 eowyn cz> 
Content-Type: 
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 09/08/2011 11:29 PM, Michael Ross wrote:

It is worth noting that many people like this software and work productively with it who did not 
write it.


[ To nobody in particular ]

I have been a Dia user for quite a long time, even tried to create a new tool for it 
(http://www.eowyn.cz/dia/dia-stars.png , if you are interested), so I am certainly not a Windows user 
accustomed to polishedness of Visio.

The fact is, Dia lacks many needed features and has annoying bugs and limits. What's worse, its 
development is at best crawling at snail's pace, so the above mentioned problems have been there for 
many years. Working with Dia is often frustrating because of that.

On the other hand, it's the best FOSS general diagramming tool we have (which is sad, but that's 
life).

The way to make things better is to make it better yourself, in some of the many ways open source 
software permits. About the best one is sending patches, but there are others as well - creating 
content, for example.

To make this post a bit more constructive: maybe it would be helpful to have an ideas / wishlist / 
TODO page on the wiki, something that a would-be contributor could use as a starting point.

Cheers, Edheldil



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Message: 2 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 13:18:32 +0200 From: Jasper Horn<jasperhorn gmail com> To: 
discussions about usage and development of dia <dia-list gnome org> Subject: Re: dia components 
Message-ID: <CAK1irg+PAON-Oep2bzH96+rTAgLN0RXURH19T0iKURQ5XXVtXQ mail gmail com> Content-Type: 
text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Hi Michael,

Both your first and this version of your question have been received.

It's just that your first question hadn't received a reply. That's not all that strange a thing, 
considering that to answer it, someone randomly needs experience with dia on suse, which turns out
not to be the case (for people who also have non-SUSE dia anyway). It is not something that can be
tested without having a SUSE install (as well as another install) either.

You'd be better off asking at SUSE, perhaps even contacting the package maintainers for the dia 
package for SUSE.

Thanks,

Jasper

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 12:00 AM, Michael Scheepers <michael scheepers gmail com>  wrote:

Hi, a question from a dia user perspective:

Earlier this year I put together a Network diagram using the standard dia install on SUSE. I've 
predominantly used Visio for this purpose for some time, however I was really impressed with dia
and based on my experience in this instance, resolved that dia is absolutely a viable alternative
for this purpose.

I subsequently replaced SUSE with Linux Mint, however the default dia install available in Mint is 
missing a lot of the Network elements that were available to me on SUSE. Contrary to my earlier 
extremely positive experience on SUSE, the small handful of "missing" network elements on Mint 
unfortunately prevent dia from even being an option for producing Network diagrams via the Mint 
platform.

I checked and both SUSE and MINT had the same version of dia (0.9.7 if I recall correctly but I may 
be mistaken).

Can anyone shed some light on why the? same version of dia would have a different set of elements
to choose from, when installed on two different Linux distributions?

And more importantly, can anyone advise on how I can correct this problem on Mint and get access to 
the "missing" dia elements?

_______________________________________________ dia-list mailing list dia-list gnome org 
http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list FAQ at http://live.gnome.org/Dia/Faq Main page at 
http://live.gnome.org/Dia






------------------------------

Message: 3 Date: Fri, 9 Sep 2011 13:37:44 +0200 From: Jasper Horn<jasperhorn gmail com> To: 
discussions about usage and development of dia <dia-list gnome org> Subject: Re: Dia: Why is it so 
hard to do simple things? dia-list Digest, Vol        89, Issue 7 Message-ID: 
<CAK1irgLaux_iWP_PU_Td0ohStiLUj5+xy7CzbuprDycYDe=gOA mail gmail com> Content-Type: text/plain; 
charset=ISO-8859-1

Tech Support Department wrote:

Friend, I understand and share in your frustration. ?As far as I can understand it, the majority of 
the free and open source software (FOSS) community is just creating software to serve their own 
needs. ?That others may use it is besides the point.


You are mistaken. There is very little FOSS software that is created without the fact that others
will use it in mind. User interfaces may not always be as sophisticated, but they are made so people
in general can use the software. Sure, sometimes features are included because a developer is needing
 that feature, but that is no less than logical. After all, they are using the program and they are
not getting paid for making it. If you miss a certain feature, you are free to do the same and add it
 yourself.


Their web site's existence is evidently not a promotion of the product for others to use.


There are two things at work here.

First, there is the fact that indeed, the website is not promotional material. They do not need as 
many users as possible in order to make more money, so they do not have a website made to attract new 
users.

Secondly, nobody is paid to maintain the website. That means that the website isn't always up to
date, complete and all that. That's too bad, really, but it is the hard reality of things here. It is
 typically also one of those things you could be helping out with yourself, even if you do not know
how to program.


Also, keep in mind that they are doing something in their own way, and they are not necessarily 
wanting to do it as others may desire, since that is not their goal.


Have you ever met a software company that is catering to every need of every single user? And now you 
expect people who are doing this without getting paid to do just that? As actually, you are saying 
that because your wishes weren't what the project did. Sure, paid projects may cater to the masses 
more, but they are getting paid. And often this is not even a problem of them not wanting to do it as 
you want to see it, but just the fact that other things may have a higher priority and they can't
just hire an extra programmer on an open source project...

Thanks,

Jasper


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