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@Michael Ross There is no need to apologize. Either it is your personal responsibility or not. If not, no biggie. If it is, then there is always room for improvement, and apologies are still not necessary. Also, congratulations on being able to adapt so quickly. You've learned to do what I did from the outset; tried to learn how the program works and do something useful with it. Since everyone thinks differently, using something customized for just a single mindset is extremely difficult for the rest of the world. But I'm pretty good at working with that, and I have the ability to find the areas needing to be fixed. That's why I make suggestions and ask questions. It is a free service I offer. Sometimes I offer free documentation assistance if I am asked. Another free service. @Nux What is a "vector" program? I must have missed that in the documentation. Can you direct me to the salient part please? Also, I used the term "canvas" because the documentation used it. Is it not supposed to be there? If we can't agree on the terms, we will have a problem discussing this. @all Who was it that stated the ruler could be changed to inches? Were they wrong? Thanks. On 07/21/2011 06:52 PM, dia-list-request gnome org wrote: Send dia-list mailing list submissions to dia-list gnome org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to dia-list-request gnome org You can reach the person managing the list at dia-list-owner gnome org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of dia-list digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: Margins (Tech Support Department) 2. Re: Margins (Michael Ross) 3. Re: Margins (Maciej Jaros) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 12:16:56 -0400 From: Tech Support Department <tech frontrowcomputer com> To: dia-list gnome org Subject: Re: Margins Message-ID: <4E2850F8 40906 frontrowcomputer com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mail.gnome.org/archives/dia-list/attachments/20110721/4aab2035/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 17:01:48 -0400 From: Michael Ross <michael e ross gmail com> To: discussions about usage and development of dia <dia-list gnome org> Subject: Re: Margins Message-ID: <CANNQeo+czDVNLjt-SCREECEB54DcWEGy1U=ayLkf0cFniKDDdw mail gmail com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" I won't apologize for a program I have learned and like - even though habits developed elsewhere had to be unlearned, I decided not to ask for a refund and learned how to use what I could. You *cannot* draw in the margins - where are they? You can't see them, so how were you able to draw in them? You can only draw on the adjacent sheet of a segmented plot. (Segmented means if you have a Dia on four pages, when you print it you will get four pages with whatever size margins you told it to use. You can tape them together into a large plot if you like.) If you draw across a page break line and print it out the margins will be clear of printing. So if you don't want that to happen, then draw inside the page breaks, a simple paradigm. If you do draw over the page breaks then you can scale and move things to get them back inside the breaks. Dia is open source. That means it is built by volunteers. That means if you don't like the documentation, or want a new or different feature, you are welcome to change it yourself, or lobby politely for others to do that work for you. >From observing how the "management" of Dia works, the things you want do not exist is because no one has made a sufficient case to get the change implemented. So the program grows according to the inclinations of the most active participants. Probably no one here cares that much about the way the other programs you mentioned work since Dia meets their needs. Regarding the rulers, I think I asked the same question long ago and was told that the program was developed in centimeters and so there you have it. Since 1 inch is close to 25mm, I just do the math on the fly. On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 12:16 PM, Tech Support Department < tech frontrowcomputer com> wrote:** Actually, the user can most certainly draw outside the margins as well as the page borders. That's the whole problem. If on the other hand, one cannot draw outside margins, as was pointed out, because they don't exist on the canvas, that would be entirely different. In that case, one might like to see such a simple sentence in the help section. Maybe something like "It is impossible to draw outside margins because they do not exist on the canvas". And maybe "Only page breaks are shown". Of course that leaves the odd behavior of minus so many units of measure to the left and top. That is where it is useless regardless of any of the rest of it. The program cannot properly show "full page", zoom to margin width, zoom to page width or zoom to two page view, based upon the chosen page size and type. Remember that one's ability to zoom in Dia is restricted by the viewer's expectations of what they are seeing on the canvas. If the canvas has no relationship to standard practices, it remains counter-productive to the process. One can possibly learn to work around it, but it isn't easy. Also, I could find no directions on how to set the rulers to inches. Most things I've read say that is not possible. Further, what is a "segmented plot"? I don't have a plotter, so does that help me on my printer? The fact remains that Dia, although very useful, has a non-standard way of addressing pages. It forces users into doing things in a manner different from thirty years of practice. Thanks. --"The hedge fund managers of America are getting lower tax rates than physics professors or cab drivers. That is demented." -- Charlie Munger of Berkshire Hathaway To invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. Thomas A. Edison<http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/t/thomasaed125362.html> Michael E. Ross (919) 550-2430 Land (919) 576-0824 <https://www.google.com/voice/b/0?pli=1#phones> Google Phone (919) 631-1451 Cell (919) 513-0418 Desk michael e ross gmail com <michael e ross gmail com> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://mail.gnome.org/archives/dia-list/attachments/20110721/355ca540/attachment.html> ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 00:49:29 +0200 From: Maciej Jaros <egil wp pl> To: dia-list gnome org Subject: Re: Margins Message-ID: <4E28ACF9 5000908 wp pl> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Tech Support Department (2011-07-21 18:16): > Actually, the user can most certainly draw outside the margins as well as the page borders. That's the whole problem. > > If on the other hand, one cannot draw outside margins, as was pointed out, because they don't exist on the canvas, that would be entirely different. In that case, one might like to see such a simple sentence in the help section. Maybe something like "It is impossible to draw outside margins because they do not exist on the canvas". And maybe "Only page breaks are shown". Of course that leaves the odd behavior of minus so many units of measure to the left and top. That is where it is useless regardless of any of the rest of it. > > The program cannot properly show "full page", zoom to margin width, zoom to page width or zoom to two page view, based upon the chosen page size and type. Remember that one's ability to zoom in Dia is restricted by the viewer's expectations of what they are seeing on the canvas. If the canvas has no relationship to standard practices, it remains counter-productive to the process. One can possibly learn to work around it, but it isn't easy. > > Also, I could find no directions on how to set the rulers to inches. Most things I've read say that is not possible. > > Further, what is a "segmented plot"? I don't have a plotter, so does that help me on my printer? > > The fact remains that Dia, although very useful, has a non-standard way of addressing pages. It forces users into doing things in a manner different from thirty years of practice. Seriously? You can draw through pages in most vector programs I know (if not all) as a page is only a physical concept. In Inkscape page is only a suggestion as is in Adobe Flash (things might get cut out of view but they are still there). In diagramming programs like MS Visio, MS SQL Server (DB diagram designer), Rational Rose and EA Sparx pages are not even shown (or at least not by default). The page concept is more appropraite for printing the diagram only. Even in MS Word and OOo Writer you can use Web layout. You've used the word "canvas". Maybe this is problem. You seem to be expecting behaviour of raster picture programs as the canvas is a concept used in those programs. You should probably read more about vector graphics and maybe then you will be more accustomed with the concepts used in Dia. Regards, Nux. ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ dia-list mailing list dia-list gnome org http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/dia-list End of dia-list Digest, Vol 87, Issue 10 **************************************** |