Re: [UI] Sheets and Objects dialog

[Hans Breuer <hans breuer org>]

At 23.07.2010 00:09, demurgets free fr wrote:
> Quoting Hans Breuer<hans breuer org>:
[...]
> Still, my point is: do you really need to create multiple custom sheets (100%
> custom or derived from system sheets)? This is nice, but are there any users
> really exploiting this?
Apparently there are at least two :)

> > > This involves a lot of code, including a startup warning dialog if the
> > < system
> > > sheet is newer and if you want to overwrite your local customizations.
> > To me this code complexity appears to be necessary, if the use case is
> > considered usefull.
> That's exactly my point: you're the maintainer, so it's up to you to choose. Do
> you think this is a real use case?
Yes, I think so. And I tried to explain it in my earlier mail.

> My proposal is to replace the dialog by a simpler, "Favorites" where one would
> only have one sheet on the left : "Favorites".
To me the whole Sheets & Objects dialog appears to be overkill for a 
simple, single Favorites target sheet. Wouldn't just a bookmark menu entry 
for objects be enough?

> I'd go for that:
> 1) a GtkToolPalette with a default sheet set as of today (Assorted, UML,
> Flowchart), with a button to customize the Sheets displayed.
Sounds interesting, but might end up less convenient than what we have 
today, at least for people often switching between lots of sheets.

Also the use of GtkToolPalette would force us to bump the required Gtk+ 
version to the most recent one. I'd like to keep Dia running with older 
Gtk+ versions as long as feasible.

> 2) the palette would always contain an empty "Favorites" section, closed by
> default, with a hint saying to go to the "Favorites" dialog or right-click add
> or drag and drop an item in the section for fast access.
> 3) the actual sheets customization dialog would only have the Favorites on the
> left to simplify it. It would be the equivalent of drag and dropping but easier
> to discover and use with the keyboard.
> 4) This dialog could also feature something to download/install additional
> shapes set, from http://dia-installer.de/shapes.html for instance.
>
> See attached (awful) mockups to make for an easier explanation.
The basis of your mockups is already an outdated version of the 
Sheets&Object dialog (git master has a different button distribution).

If you are doing patches, please create them against git master.

> > > I'd like to improbe the UI in light of removing deprecated widgets.
> > This should be basically the replacment of GtkOptionMenu with GtkComboBox.
> sorry, I meant: removing deprecated widgets is a good opportunity to improve the
> UI more deeply while we are at it.
Still I prefer manageable steps :) If for example we could not agree on the 
final appearance for "Favorites" wouldn't it be nice to at least get rid of 
the deprecated widgets on the way?

> [...]
> > > If I'm not mistaken, customizing system sheets should be ruled-out, even if
> > they
> > > are a lot of items.
> > I dont follow (although I'm only using it to shake out bugs;)).
> I really hope you've understood me by now :)
In this specific point my understanding did not change. The ability to 
customize system sheets and to create new sheets are IMO useful features we 
should not throw away.

> > > Creating custom sheets is nice, but you need to write shape files.
> > Not really. You can just create them by the shape exporter. (Some XML
> > editing is still necessary to create good shapes.)
> Ho, I did not know about this feature: is this File>  Export as .shape file?
Yes.

> Still, this can be an option to import in the "Favorites" section. Anyway, a
> user can create a whole new sheet by editing XML files anyway.
A user can also create a Favorites sheets by editing XML files, but that's 
not the point ...

> The whole purpose of the Favorites is optimizing the workflow for most of the
> users.
But improving one workflow should be possible without completely loosing 
other ones.

> > > Wouldn't it make it simpler to have:
> > >         - some sort of bookmarks (a la Firefox) lying in this dialog first *and*
> > > accessible from a popup in the palette directly to quickly bookmark an item
> > >         - the bookmarks go in a unique "Custom" sheet (ideally always visible)
> > >         - when you have 1+ bookmark, you automatically get this "Custom" sheet
> > Looks like a useful feature in itself, but I don't see this as necessarily
> > coupled with the Sheets&Objects dialog. Although sooner or later the user
> > might have more bookmarks than viable for a flat structure (one sheet).
> Mhh ... I thought a bit about that, and I do not see a reason to structure more
> using 2 or more custom sheets.
Here is our fundamental disagreement. It solely depends on the number of 
different sheets and objects (aka diagram types) you are using.

> I'd prefer not making the current sheets handling more complex by layering a
> "Favorites" on top of it, but replacing it instead.
I think your favorites idea could well be completely independent of the 
Sheets&Objects dialog.

[...]
> Talking with users in LUGs, almost nobody noticed this dialog until I talk about
> it.
Yes, it is addressing advanced users.

[...]
> I do not want to rush in contributing stuff in C that's going to be frowned upon
> as soon as I have proposed a patch: I'd better discuss it before :)
Fair enough.

> If you do not like this proposal because it's making the system not flexible
> enough, I can understand, and I'll try to proceed with just porting the comboboxes
> first.
That would be appreciated.

> For the GtkCombobox port, I'll certainly present things differently since the
> tooltip support is not really up to par vs. GtkOptionMenu.
I never noticed, but looking at
https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80980
it should not be too difficult to overcome that limitation nowadays.

Thanks,
        Hans

-------- Hans "at" Breuer "dot" Org -----------
Tell me what you need, and I'll tell you how to
get along without it.                -- Dilbert