Re: I believe we should reconsider our sys-tray removal

Going in to read this thread, I had two issues regarding the premises behind the removal of status icons:

1. Status icons' use-cases are already 100% covered by other design patterns
2. Applications will change to conform to the new HID guidelines.

I take issue with both. For starters, a lot of applications used on the Linux Desktop are cross-platform and have design teams that do not follow GNOME's guidelines. Most Electron applications were designed as macOS-first, and generally, I don't think a lot of people know Linux DEs have HID guidelines. And furthermore, faced with the reality that for a lot of those cross-platform applications, Linux support is an afterthought, I believe that not a lot of those applications will devout GNOME (or Linux)-specific features in order to conform with the HID (but I am *not* saying that the HID is useless as it provides GNOME with its visual identity and is respected by GNOME applications).

Which brings us to my first point here. Eventually one could think that given enough time, all applications could update. But the status icons provide a unique two features that are missing with any other available design pattern: an at-a-glance visually rich language. And I think Dropbox provides a good example here.
Without a status icon, Dropbox would have to find another way to provide synchronization status to the user. The Nautilus emblems feature is nice, but what about Caja/Dolphin/Total Commander,<Insert other DE here>? The other solution would be to provide a status window, which would add a lot of friction as you would need to load the window every time you want to see the status.
On the other hand, having an icon, you can glance over the icon and instantly know what's going on within your Dropbox folder.

Status icons can be overdone and distracting - but that's an issue with individual applications and is DE (and OS)-agnostic. Instead of prohibiting use altogether, which as those last 2 years have proven is not efficient, I think they should rather be regulated through HID and reported bugs.

Le sam. 20 avr. 2019 à 01:05, Ty Young via desktop-devel-list <desktop-devel-list gnome org> a écrit :

Thank you so much for bringing this up(again). I had originally only subscribed to this mailing list to see if some bugs I had ran across in 3.32 were already known(to which no one replied but whatever) but I'm glad because it only proves one of my points about Gnome shooting itself in the foot by removing features that developers(and often by extension users) use and relying on community made extensions to fix it.

I haven't read the prior discussions or even the series of emails in this thread before but I have to ask: was this outcome really that unexpected?

Not to put down Gnome 3 extension developers or anything since they've clearly benefited Gnome 3 by allowing customization and features that Gnome isn't willing to allow/add but uh, it is an objective fact that Gnome extensions can cause performance, reliability, and usability problems. Antergos installs by default a Gnome 3 extension to add shutdown/lock buttons to the upper right menu for LightDM which did(still does? I use GDM now. Don't know.) crash often resulting in no way to lock/restart the system. Extensions, even when shipped by default in a distribution, brake between versions. They can't be depended on.

Developers are reluctant enough to port applications to Linux. They see Gnome 3, the most prominent Linux desktop environment, not support something that their app needs and is supported on more popular and profitable platforms like Windows and MacOS and they might just not bother porting it over to Linux *especially* with no viable easy alternatives. For the developers that were/are already on Linux, they *clearly* don't care(why should they? Linux is only like 2% market share) and their app is partially or fully broken on Gnome 3. Some developers might (reasonably) even demand that users install one of the Topicons extensions which makes Gnome 3 look bad because it both doesn't support it by default and extensions aren't reliable(above).

So again, I'd like to ask: was this outcome really that unexpected? What *was* expected to happen? I understand that there were technical reasons for them being removed but not only was it extremely sudden at the time(IIRC) there was no viable alternative. I remember asking a Gnome developer on Reddit about it and the response was something along the lines of "you should use the new notification system". What? How does that offer the same or similar functionality as tray icons? Is it possible to permanently display a "App <X> is hidden. Click here to unhide." and get an event when the user clicks it? Even if it does, it still doesn't provide the same functionality.

Please make the right decision and bring them back. I understand there is some debate on where they should be located in the shell if they were to return(among other things)... but personally I think the most appropriate place would be in the top right in a drop down tray. My arguments for putting it there are:

A) It follows other Gnome extension location/behavior such as "removable drive menu"

B) It follows what Windows does which Gnome has used as a reference for its application designs before

C) it would allow for multiple app icons without cluttering the top bar like Topicons Plus does or any other part of the desktop

By default left clicking an app icon should bring the application to the user's view while right clicking should open the app specific context menu. Is that not possible currently? It seems like the middle scroll wheel and right mouse buttons are hijacked to do a left mouse click. Is that not possible to change?

While I'm here, I'd like to talk about the behavior and moderation of the /r/gnome(and other places) subreddit mods and its users because frankly it's a bit ridiculous.

Firstly(as linked in my article, direct link here: a developer/foundation member of Gnome attacked a user for pointing out a fairly huge UX fail with Gnome Photos(and any other app that uses tracker). I don't even use Gnome Photos or related so I was a bit confused at first until I actually opened Gnome Photos only to see dozens of images from an extracted Java JRE in my downloads folder. It is absolutely a problem and for a Gnome developer/foundation member to respond in such a way without at least trying to understand the problem looks really bad on Gnome as a whole.

Secondly, there was this( which was clearly in response to my article(along with /r/linux posts). Not only do the mods(/r/gnome) of in that Reddit thread allow trolling(which breaks the rules which you can only see on mobile for some reason. Banning people for rules that users that don't exist or can't see is /r/linux level bad.) but also fail to correct many troll/inaccurate things said throughout the thread, namely:

A) Calling "activities" the "overview". These are used interchangeably. Search "overview" in Gnome Software and you will get extensions that affect "activities" and call "activities" the "overview". While I made a mistake and switched to overview it is still technically correct(or at least no one can agree on what to call it).

B) Completely ignoring and/or mocking my positive comments on Gnome's UI design. Yes, I'm aware it borrows heavily from MacOS(which I have never really used extensively) but Gnome does not entirely copy/paste it from any screenshots I can find on Google. It does go its own direction with it(in a good way) by taking inspiration from multiple established OSs like MacOS and Windows(proven by the app design pages that get released for app redesigns).  Just because Gnome 3's design is largely based on MacOS doesn't mean it will end up as good or better than MacOS in the end. It isn't always that easy. Both thought and effort are still required and things can go wrong.

C) Mocking of my complaint that Numix with preferred dark theme turned on has CSS compatibility issues. I had assumed that the issue was caused by an issue with the applications itself since there were examples of other applications have no such issue with similar layouts/designs. Regardless, this is a bit comical considering multiple applications under the Gnome umbrella either override the default Adwaita GTK theme or have a "Night Mode" toggle(and don't respect global light or dark mode as a result). The default blue Adwaita GTK theme highlighting color is also bugged in Vivaldi and looks like garbage as a result but ironically is fine on Numix. When enabling Adwaita-Dark from Gnome Tweaks(comes by default now I guess), multiple programs have CSS problems such as Thunderbird and in Netbeans. If you yourselves can't ensure that all applications use the Adwaita theme correctly then don't blame or mock users who think it's an application bug because it may just very well be.

D) Users telling me to use KDE or some other desktop because I imagine some basic level of customization built in a mainstream ready desktop environment. There are many reasons I use Gnome 3 and not KDE or the seemingly half dozen Gnome 2 lookalikes. I like Gnome 3 at its core but don't like the lack of min/max buttons, hot corner, easy access to removable media, rounded top bar corner among other minor things with the default design(these are just personal preferences, there isn't anything really wrong except for maybe min/max buttons and the top left corner). None of those have anything to do with the core Gnome 3 design. They are small UI tweaks and nothing more. It's all more minor things that aren't worth piling on half a dozen extensions to fix nor causing any compatibility problems(shouldn't anyway).

I could write an entire article on how much I dislike KDE alone but to keep it simple: it looks and feels like someone tried making a (IMO ugly) knockoff of Windows 10's DE and forgot to disable the extra developer only customization settings.  Its settings app is full of UI design atrocities like list-views within list-views to narrow down to the actual settings and some settings labels are EXTREMELY misleading(Display and Monitor == compositor settings?!?!? Where do you go for resolution and refresh rate?!?!?). The baloo file indexer ALWAYS runs at startup for some reason even in Gnome making my computer unusable for literally 5+ minutes on startup. There was a bug in Arch KDE where resizing a window caused the buffer or w/e to reset resulting UI glitching for awhile. There are *so* many problems with KDE I don't even understand how/why people use or recommend it. If you like it, great... but I don't. It isn't for me nor do I personally think it's mainstream ready, even with all of its supposedly amazing customization features. These are all areas IMO Gnome 3 does better.

As for the seemingly half dozen Gnome 2 lookalikes, they generally have a dozen separate settings applications with maybe 8 settings in each instead of maybe 1-2 applications(standard/advanced sort of like Gnome Settings and Gnome Tweaks) for no real reason. I haven't used them much so I can't say too much more on the core designs besides they aren't for me.

E) People not getting the point about extensions hurting both the user's experience AND Gnome's reputation. This should be obvious even without the whole Topicons thing. Distributions aren't labeling their customized Gnome 3 as custom so people can and will assume that a customized Gnome 3 shell is *the* default Gnome 3 experience when it is in fact not(Manjaro, Solus, and Antergos IIRC does this). Gnome should really ask these distributions to specify if they are pre customized and ask to offer an alternative default Gnome 3.

F) People bringing up that other OS(s) also have hot corners. I don't know about other operating systems besides Windows and Android but I recall strongly that people hated it in Windows too. While there are gesture focused(somewhat-similar) launchers in Android, there are just as many without.

G) People not reading before commenting and spreading FUD. This really isn't particularly specific to this TBH.

etc. This is complete BS and I believe an apology in Gnome related subreddits(/r/gnome, /r/fedora, and /r/linux) is required. You may disagree with anything I have to say and engage with me in the comment section if you want. Having a little fun and criticism is fine but lying, brigading, trolling, etc is not and is against both *your* own rules on /r/gnome and sitewide(well, brigading is anyway). I may criticize Gnome and Linux a lot but I have never done this BS to anyone nor will I ever.

I'd also just like to point out It's pretty rich people in the Linux community call me a troll yet troll themselves. It's even richer for moderators of subreddits to demand that users follow rules that they themselves do not follow or enforce nor actually have listed on the sidebar(/r/linux and /r/gnome). Stop it.

(I know I'm shadowbanned from /r/gnome btw.)

On 3/25/19 5:31 AM, Justin Joseph via desktop-devel-list wrote:
Thank you Jean and Neils.

Sorry for hijacking, I am not active here anymore and couldn't find the option.

On Mon, 25 Mar, 2019, 3:54 PM Niels De Graef, <nielsdegraef gmail com> wrote:
Hey Justin,

You can do so by going to the following link:
At the bottom, you will find the appropriate button to unsubscribe.


On ma, Mar 25, 2019 at 11:18 AM, Justin Joseph via desktop-devel-list
<desktop-devel-list gnome org> wrote:
> Sorry, how do I unsubscribe from this list? I can't find any option.
> On Mon, 25 Mar, 2019, 2:27 PM Allan Day via desktop-devel-list,
> <desktop-devel-list gnome org> wrote:
>> Hey Britt,
>> Britt Yazel <bwyazel gnome org> wrote:
>>> I want to re-poen an old argument now that we have seen the effects
>>> of removing the sys-tray/app-indicator tray for well over a year.
>>> In short, the users are not happy.
>> As I recently wrote on GitLab [1], I'm open to re-evaluating this
>> from a design perspective. However, I think we'd need a different
>> implementation from GtkStatusIcon, and to my knowledge acceptable
>> alternative isn't available.
>>> I believe our goals of putting pressure on application developers
>>> to ditch the antiquated app-indicator model fell mostly on deaf ears
>> The goal was never to force app developers to do anything, and they
>> can include a status indicator if they want. It's just that it won't
>> be shown by default. If you haven't seen it, I wrote a lengthy
>> account on my blog [2].
>>> An example of this biting us in the arse is that with 3.32 TopIcons
>>> is causing the CPU usage to run through the roof, and people are
>>> blaming the Shell for the CPU usage, not the extension, leaving our
>>> users with a bad taste in their mouths.
>> Can we can do a better job at sign-posting which extension people
>> should use?
>> Allan
>> --
>> [1]
>> [2]
>>  _______________________________________________
>>  desktop-devel-list mailing list
>> desktop-devel-list gnome org

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