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Thank you so much for bringing this up(again). I had originally
only subscribed to this mailing list to see if some bugs I had ran
across in 3.32 were already known(to which no one replied but
whatever) but I'm glad because it only proves one of my points
about Gnome shooting itself in the foot by removing features that
developers(and often by extension users) use and relying on
community made extensions to fix it.
I haven't read the prior discussions or even the series of emails in this thread before but I have to ask: was this outcome really that unexpected?
Not to put down Gnome 3 extension developers or anything since
they've clearly benefited Gnome 3 by allowing customization and
features that Gnome isn't willing to allow/add but uh, it is an
objective fact that Gnome extensions can cause performance,
reliability, and usability problems. Antergos installs by default
a Gnome 3 extension to add shutdown/lock buttons to the upper
right menu for LightDM which did(still does? I use GDM now. Don't
know.) crash often resulting in no way to lock/restart the system.
Extensions, even when shipped by default in a distribution, brake
between versions. They can't be depended on.
Developers are reluctant enough to port applications to Linux. They see Gnome 3, the most prominent Linux desktop environment, not support something that their app needs and is supported on more popular and profitable platforms like Windows and MacOS and they might just not bother porting it over to Linux *especially* with no viable easy alternatives. For the developers that were/are already on Linux, they *clearly* don't care(why should they? Linux is only like 2% market share) and their app is partially or fully broken on Gnome 3. Some developers might (reasonably) even demand that users install one of the Topicons extensions which makes Gnome 3 look bad because it both doesn't support it by default and extensions aren't reliable(above).
So again, I'd like to ask: was this outcome really that
unexpected? What *was* expected to happen? I understand that there
were technical reasons for them being removed but not only was it
extremely sudden at the time(IIRC) there was no viable
alternative. I remember asking a Gnome developer on Reddit about
it and the response was something along the lines of "you should
use the new notification system". What? How does that offer the
same or similar functionality as tray icons? Is it possible to
permanently display a "App <X> is hidden. Click here to
unhide." and get an event when the user clicks it? Even if it
does, it still doesn't provide the same functionality.
Please make the right decision and bring them back. I understand there is some debate on where they should be located in the shell if they were to return(among other things)... but personally I think the most appropriate place would be in the top right in a drop down tray. My arguments for putting it there are:
A) It follows other Gnome extension location/behavior such as "removable drive menu"
B) It follows what Windows does which Gnome has used as a
reference for its application designs before
C) it would allow for multiple app icons without cluttering the
top bar like Topicons Plus does or any other part of the desktop
By default left clicking an app icon should bring the application to the user's view while right clicking should open the app specific context menu. Is that not possible currently? It seems like the middle scroll wheel and right mouse buttons are hijacked to do a left mouse click. Is that not possible to change?
While I'm here, I'd like to talk about the behavior and
moderation of the /r/gnome(and other places) subreddit mods and
its users because frankly it's a bit ridiculous.
Firstly(as linked in my article, direct link here:
https://archive.fo/KKR25) a developer/foundation member of Gnome
attacked a user for pointing out a fairly huge UX fail with Gnome
Photos(and any other app that uses tracker). I don't even use
Gnome Photos or related so I was a bit confused at first until I
actually opened Gnome Photos only to see dozens of images from an
extracted Java JRE in my downloads folder. It is absolutely a
problem and for a Gnome developer/foundation member to respond in
such a way without at least trying to understand the problem looks
really bad on Gnome as a whole.
Secondly, there was this(https://archive.fo/Ng2IC) which was clearly in response to my article(along with /r/linux posts). Not only do the mods(/r/gnome) of in that Reddit thread allow trolling(which breaks the rules which you can only see on mobile for some reason. Banning people for rules that users that don't exist or can't see is /r/linux level bad.) but also fail to correct many troll/inaccurate things said throughout the thread, namely:
A) Calling "activities" the "overview". These are used
interchangeably. Search "overview" in Gnome Software and you will
get extensions that affect "activities" and call "activities" the
"overview". While I made a mistake and switched to overview it is
still technically correct(or at least no one can agree on what to
call it).
B) Completely ignoring and/or mocking my positive comments on
Gnome's UI design. Yes, I'm aware it borrows heavily from
MacOS(which I have never really used extensively) but Gnome does
not entirely copy/paste it from any screenshots I can find on
Google. It does go its own direction with it(in a good way) by
taking inspiration from multiple established OSs like MacOS and
Windows(proven by the app design pages that get released for app
redesigns). Just because Gnome 3's design is largely based on
MacOS doesn't mean it will end up as good or better than MacOS in
the end. It isn't always that easy. Both thought and effort are
still required and things can go wrong.
C) Mocking of my complaint that Numix with preferred dark theme
turned on has CSS compatibility issues. I had assumed that the
issue was caused by an issue with the applications itself since
there were examples of other applications have no such issue with
similar layouts/designs. Regardless, this is a bit comical
considering multiple applications under the Gnome umbrella either
override the default Adwaita GTK theme or have a "Night Mode"
toggle(and don't respect global light or dark mode as a result).
The default blue Adwaita GTK theme highlighting color is also
bugged in Vivaldi and looks like garbage as a result but
ironically is fine on Numix. When enabling Adwaita-Dark from Gnome
Tweaks(comes by default now I guess), multiple programs have CSS
problems such as Thunderbird and in Netbeans. If you yourselves
can't ensure that all applications use the Adwaita theme correctly
then don't blame or mock users who think it's an application bug
because it may just very well be.
D) Users telling me to use KDE or some other desktop because I
imagine some basic level of customization built in a mainstream
ready desktop environment. There are many reasons I use Gnome 3
and not KDE or the seemingly half dozen Gnome 2 lookalikes. I like
Gnome 3 at its core but don't like the lack of min/max buttons,
hot corner, easy access to removable media, rounded top bar corner
among other minor things with the default design(these are just
personal preferences, there isn't anything really wrong except for
maybe min/max buttons and the top left corner). None of those have
anything to do with the core Gnome 3 design. They are small UI
tweaks and nothing more. It's all more minor things that aren't
worth piling on half a dozen extensions to fix nor causing any
compatibility problems(shouldn't anyway).
I could write an entire article on how much I dislike KDE alone
but to keep it simple: it looks and feels like someone tried
making a (IMO ugly) knockoff of Windows 10's DE and forgot to
disable the extra developer only customization settings. Its
settings app is full of UI design atrocities like list-views
within list-views to narrow down to the actual settings and some
settings labels are EXTREMELY misleading(Display and Monitor ==
compositor settings?!?!? Where do you go for resolution and
refresh rate?!?!?). The baloo file indexer ALWAYS runs at startup
for some reason even in Gnome making my computer unusable for
literally 5+ minutes on startup. There was a bug in Arch KDE where
resizing a window caused the buffer or w/e to reset resulting UI
glitching for awhile. There are *so* many problems with KDE I
don't even understand how/why people use or recommend it. If you
like it, great... but I don't. It isn't for me nor do I personally
think it's mainstream ready, even with all of its supposedly
amazing customization features. These are all areas IMO Gnome 3
does better.
As for the seemingly half dozen Gnome 2 lookalikes, they
generally have a dozen separate settings applications with maybe 8
settings in each instead of maybe 1-2
applications(standard/advanced sort of like Gnome Settings and
Gnome Tweaks) for no real reason. I haven't used them much so I
can't say too much more on the core designs besides they aren't
for me.
E) People not getting the point about extensions hurting both the
user's experience AND Gnome's reputation. This should be obvious
even without the whole Topicons thing. Distributions aren't
labeling their customized Gnome 3 as custom so people can and will
assume that a customized Gnome 3 shell is *the* default Gnome 3
experience when it is in fact not(Manjaro, Solus, and Antergos
IIRC does this). Gnome should really ask these distributions to
specify if they are pre customized and ask to offer an alternative
default Gnome 3.
F) People bringing up that other OS(s) also have hot corners. I don't know about other operating systems besides Windows and Android but I recall strongly that people hated it in Windows too. While there are gesture focused(somewhat-similar) launchers in Android, there are just as many without.
G) People not reading before commenting and spreading FUD. This
really isn't particularly specific to this TBH.
etc. This is complete BS and I believe an apology in Gnome
related subreddits(/r/gnome, /r/fedora, and /r/linux) is required.
You may disagree with anything I have to say and engage with me in
the comment section if you want. Having a little fun and criticism
is fine but lying, brigading, trolling, etc is not and is against
both *your* own rules on /r/gnome and sitewide(well, brigading is
anyway). I may criticize Gnome and Linux a lot but I have never
done this BS to anyone nor will I ever.
I'd also just like to point out It's pretty rich people in the
Linux community call me a troll yet troll themselves. It's even
richer for moderators of subreddits to demand that users follow
rules that they themselves do not follow or enforce nor actually
have listed on the sidebar(/r/linux and /r/gnome). Stop it.
(I know I'm shadowbanned from /r/gnome btw.)
On 3/25/19 5:31 AM, Justin Joseph via
desktop-devel-list wrote:
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