Re: 3.6 Feature: IBus/XKB integration

[Weng Xuetian <wengxt gmail com>]

On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 11:58 PM, Jasper St. Pierre
<jstpierre mecheye net> wrote:
> We only have the development resources to ship one input method. It's
> going to need special code to integrate with Clutter and the St
> toolkit. If IBus is bad right now, we need to fix it.
>
> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 12:55 PM, Marguerite Su <i marguerite su> wrote:
>> On Sat, May 12, 2012 at 10:51 PM, Owen Taylor <otaylor redhat com> wrote:
>>> Hi Maguerite,
>>>
>>> Thanks for the detailed response!
>>>
>>> It's hard for me to talk about the pros and cons of fcitx and IBus -
>>> sadly I don't speak or write Chinese, and I haven't investigated the
>>> technical operations of these systems either.
>>>
>>> But what I do want to talk about is the user experience we try to create
>>> in GNOME. In general, our goal isn't maximum choice. It's the best
>>> possible experience.
>>>
>>
>> yes, I can understand your goal. to be honest, users are fool,
>> although I'm one of them.
>>
>> maybe in coders' eyes. I can't code, I can't understand the tech or
>> code details.
>>
>> I'm just a packager. I come to post here because I heard IBus may be
>> compulsory for GNOME. like if you install GNOME, you have to install
>> IBus. and if you want to uninstall IBus, you have to uninstall the
>> whole GNOME.
>>
>> that's what I'm worried. I don't want to see this sad thing happen.
>> because GNOME is still awesome. so no one is preventing you developing
>> IBus integration. but please make sure I at least can build and run
>> GNOME without IBus. or create an universal solution that can benefit
>> every nowadays and future input methods.
>>
>> actually, fcitx, here, can be any other input method. because users
>> are really tired of IBus, endure enough of its bugs(not GNOME bugs,
>> but IBus ones). they don't even want to hear its name. Once users have
>> bad impression on it, it's harder to call him back than newcomers. so
>> at least we have to give them some time to re-accept IBus if you
>> really vote for IBus.
>>
>> if not, then I'm exiting because you are making the world a better place.
>>
>>> A user starts using GNOME. They have trouble inputting Chinese text.
>>> A friend sees their computer, tells them to uninstall IBus and install
>>> fcitx. Things work much better. Is this a success of Free Software?
>>> No - it's a failure. We gave the user an operating system that didn't
>>> work until someone fixed it.
>>>
>>
>> No. it's not a failure of FOSS, nor GNOME.
>>
>> it's a failure of IBus.
>>
>> the solution is to drop IBus. and provide an universal solution for
>> competitors to join.
>>
>> not take the bad one into your own hands.
>>
>> that's nature selection.
>>
>> let IM developers do their own homework. we're focusing on our GNOME.
>>
>> like you said, a developer who actually use his product is the best developer.
>>
>> even GNOME developer make it work for now, it will certainly fail
>> another day. because most of the GNOME developers don't even use an
>> IM.
>>
>>> In my experience, there is almost no chance most users will understand
>>> the concept of an input method framework. Users are busy talking to
>>> their friends, doing school work, or inventing the cure for cancer. They
>>> don't want to take a course in how their computer works internally. We
>>> can provide options behavior - are they using Pinyin or the Four-Corners
>>> method? But we shouldn't give them options for how applications talk to
>>> the input method.
>>>
>>
>> True.
>>
>>> We also really value using the same basic components on all GNOME
>>> systems. You hit a crash on your system in GNOME Shell when using
>>> fcitx, and you report it in GNOME bugzilla. If I'm using fcitx, then
>>> I can reproduce the bug and fix it. If I'm using IBus or no input method
>>> framework, then the bug may never be fixed.
>>>
>>
>> why can't you mark it upstream and send it to fcitx/IBus developers?
>>
>> that's my standard workflow.
>>
>> I'm not its developer, I can't fix it better than its developer.
>>
>> so I won't get my hands full and dirty.
>>
>> just let experts do their work. I'll do mine. life will be pretty much easier.
>>
>>> Users should also be easily able to mix and match and switch between
>>> languages. This means that we need an input method framework that works
>>> well for all the input methods - we can't have one input method
>>> framework for Chinese, and another for the languages of India.
>>>
>>
>> Why can't?
>>
>> Actually no IM developer can develop an IM perfect on all languages.
>>
>> he just provides universal framework for other local developers to
>> join. and focus on his part.
>>
>> if someone is better than him in some area, users will certainly go there.
>>
>> so why we prevent users from making their own choices?
>>
>>> So, please make the argument that fcitx is better and more aligned with
>>> the philosophy of GNOME and should be used instead of IBus!
>>>
>>
>> I'm not talking about "instead of", it's not a war than one side
>> eliminates the other.
>>
>> it's to let them "live together".
>>
>> and why I came here because I thought GNOME is eliminating all other IMs.
>>
>> so I think it might makes me feel better if anyone come on explains to me that
>>
>> GNOME is not eliminating anyone.
>>
>> as I said, it's not a war. you don't have to manually pick any winner.
>>
>>> The best way to make that argument is to explain it to us -
>>>
>>>  * Does fcitx allow for an easier-to-understand configuration user
>>>   interface? Do you have screenshots?
>>>
>>>  * Does fcitx have better feedback to the user while they are entering
>>>   input?
>>>
>>>  * Does fcitx have better dictionaries and algorithms in its input
>>>   methods?
>>>
>>>  * Is fcitx less buggy?
>>>
>>
>> I'm a user, that's not my question. all I can provide is what end
>> users actually want.
>>
>> I'll provide the final result of my survey. that's all I can help you.
>>
>> Comparing tech and low-level parts of two IMs is not an end user's
>> work, and it's rude to ask such questions to an end user.
>>
>> and what I want to mention is,
>>
>> we all know junk food is bad to our health. but many people like it.
>>
>> so it still sell well.
>>
>> we can vote for better life style. but can't eliminate junk food all
>> in a sudden.
>>
>> so even if fcitx or any other IM is junk food, you can choose to not eat it.
>>
>> but you can't eliminate the possibility that others to eat.
>>
>> not to say, fcitx is the nowadays user choice.
>>
>>
>>> - Owen
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Marguerite
>> _______________________________________________
>> desktop-devel-list mailing list
>> desktop-devel-list gnome org
>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list
>
>
>
> --
>   Jasper
> _______________________________________________
> desktop-devel-list mailing list
> desktop-devel-list gnome org
> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/desktop-devel-list

Actually I see this is an impossible mission for gnome.

I see no one here really understand the real needs of input method.
Fix UI? That's not the main problem of ibus.