On Sun, 2009-08-16 at 23:55 +0100, Emmanuele Bassi wrote: > On Sun, 2009-08-16 at 12:12 +0200, Maciej Piechotka wrote: > > I'm sorry I'm posting it on wrong list. > > yes, you probably wanted to mail to desktop-devel-list instead of > gnome-devel. > Ups. Sorry. > > > I'm usuing currently Gnome 2.27.x and I've become worried about new > > dependency - clutter. > > > > OpenGL traditionally have been problematic on GNU/Linux, not mentioning > > other *nixes. Many cards are only partially supported and/or produces > > not exactly correct results. Proprietary drivers not only are > > proprietary but often are not stable. > > that *was* mostly true. the majority of GPUs, nowadays, work fine on > Linux with open source drivers[1], and provide the basic functionality > that Clutter requires[2]. > I'm aware about the improvement. However R600/R700 support is still partial experimental (at least when I check last time). R400 I have have OpenGL broken(OK. - now I have initiative to report bugs to kernel). > > Unfortunately I have rather old and strange ATI card and OpenGL I can > > best describe as 'sometimes' working. If an game uses it I'm prepared to > > have blinking screen or artifacts (I'm using 2.6.30.4 kernel but > > problems was 'since always'). I don't use propertary drivers since it > > tended to crash computer. While recently situation improved much I guess > > that many users may have similar problems. > > > When I tried new clutter-based gnometris I haven't see it running at > > all. The main portion of screen was the previous background. While I > > understend that it is not a gnome bug it shows that OpenGL is not > > perfect even on 'geeks' desktop. > > well, I wouldn't agree on the definition of your desktop as the > paradigmatic 'geek' desktop -- my puny 945, which is three years old and > that is commonly found in netbooks nowadays, is perfectly fine when > running gnome-shell *and* GL applications inside it. older cards, like > the 855 (which was released in 2003) have more problems, that's true. > Well - I used the word 'geek' not to show that this is average geek desktop but to state that I have a bit more knowledge about computer science then how to open a web browser and how it differ from search engine ;) I bought my computer 4 years ago - and it wasn't brand new (sorry - I cannot find it in neither in google nor in wikipedia). Currently I don't have resources to change it. > as for ATi cards, I'm pretty sure that the open source drivers have > become a lot better than the closed source ones; we test Clutter on > Intel, ATi and nVidia cards to check for issues -- obviously, it's > informal QA for ATi and nVidia, so we cannot possibly say "we support > every driver/GPU/operating system combination ever"; that's why we rely > on bug reports to know what degree of support we can provide. > > > While I understend the need of eye-candies I'd be rather grateful if > > features would not be hard-depended on OpenGL - since it is not working > > everywhere - especially rather old/new/peculiar computers. > > I don't think you'll like the plans for GNOME 3.0 to use GNOME Shell, > which is based on a composited window manager using Clutter, then. :-) > Composited metacity works well. I hope I'll have my computer replaced - but it may not be the case. Possibly it will be the time to change desktop environment. > I understand the objection to the introduction of a feature that heavily > depends on hardware and drivers. it's true: if the hardware support is > lagging behind then it's always a pain. > > I'd like to point out, though, that innovation cannot be driven by > looking at the past; if GNOME, and the Linux desktop, want to be > relevant with the users of today and tomorrow it cannot still be > anchored to hardware requirements of 5 to 10 years ago. Well - but hardware 5 to 10 years old is still working. I, personally, have 6-years replacement cycle - and in notebooks I do not buy brand new technology. In many institutions (at least in past) in my country (like schools etc.) hardware may be even older (although this information is a few years old so it might have changed). And still my country is upper middle income country (although I've seen studies putting it in lower high income). Additionally even if I could afford such change there is an environmental issue - why throw the 3-years old hardware which is in perfect condition and works well just because it does not support new eye candies? > if desktop > environments like GNOME don't push for resolving the drivers gap that we > have with Windows and OS X, by making use of features that desktops, > laptops, netbooks and embedded platforms *right now* expose, then the > Linux desktop won't ever be relevant. > I know that your goals may be different that mine. I'd like to have a working desktop on computer I have right now. > so I hope that you believe me when I say that I'm very sympathetic with > your issues. on the other hand, it's not like GNOME is requiring a > change of Windows Vista proportions: you need a GPU that has open source > drivers and was released between five and three years ago to have a > decent, modern, hardware accelerated desktop. > Well - unfortunately you just targeted an economic meltdown (and in my case - the end of my replacement cycle at the same time). I simply don't have resources to guarantee it during even most of the cycle (when I'll buy the new laptop it's GPU will likely be 2-3 years old. Considered 5 years cycle it will be on average 5 years old. Half of the time I'll not fulfil the requirement). Especially that I never considered GPU an important part of my desktop (I don't need eye candies). > ciao, > Emmanuele. Regards
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