Re: Some more thoughts on Java vs Mono debate

[Trent Lloyd <lathiat bur st>]

> Definitely. Its equivalent to being able to program in C but not having
> 75% of the standard C library available. Anyone who had the misfortune
> to write C code on VMS can probably relate to exactly what it was like.

Really, it could only be better than the current C situation, most
libraries dont run on other (at least windows/unix wise) platforms
without some porting or compatbility API (cygwin?)

And this is only *IF* MS decide to go on a tangent/make it hard to be
cross platform etc.

> #1  Would it be a good idea to have something like XPCOM or the OO
> classes to clean up the language binding issues once and for all

OO as in Object Orientation?

Much of the GNOME API is half-heartedly "object-orientated" in nature,
the bindings in languages (Python/C#) where it actually has OO Tend to
be alot nicer.

Not quite sure I get what you are getting to here.

> #2  Do java and/or C# as programming languages have a useful place in
> writing apps for Gnome, especially as a required part

I think C# does, from what I've experienced writing in it myself, writing
stuff in C# is really nice and GTK# is nice and makes for much more rapid
development of stuff with some nice programming features (Introspection?
-- properties so Glade autoconnect works *really nicely*, strings with
get set methods, to name a couple)

> 
> #3  Does the virtual machine stuff have any place in gnome, especially
> as a required part

Not enough knowledge to make a comment.

> #4  What of #1-#3 are justified for the core of Gnome, given the current
> issues with lower memory systems compared with rivals and given the
> tendancy of Linux especially to be used on lower end hardware.

Im developing a GTK# application on my P166 laptop with 64mb of ram
running debian unstable and while a bit slow its quite usable (GNOME/GTK
is slow anyway, the C# stuff isnt making that much of a difference)
Comile times arent too bad either.

> #4 is the big one. It means answering questions like "is there an open
> source java or .net setup available for every platform/cpu supported",
> is it actually usable, is the high overall performance cost justified,
> is the size of the library baggage being added justified etc

I don't know about Java, but the Mono project hasnt got stuff complete
for all architecures, but has quite a few covered, from the mono
homepage:

JIT works on: Linux/x86, Solaris/SPARC, PowerPC Macos and Linux

Interpreter; Linux [ x86, ppc, s390, strongarm, sparc, hppa, sparc9 ]

It should be noted any windows compatibility stuff (like the WINE
Windows.Forms implementation) would only run on x86

> The performance issues bother me, both .net and java people sound like
> the (now defunct) OS world of microkernels "Its only 10% slower in our
> carefully rigged demo not measuring system wide impact - but its worth
> it". Native code may well solve this a JIT is unlikely to, however good.

I haven't done much or any real big applications in Mono, but it seems
reasonably usable on my P166 laptop as mentioned above.

Most GNOME apps these days arent really usable at that speed tho, its
sortof on the very borderline.

I can't compare or comment on java because I have never used it.

Cheers,
Trent

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