Re: new modules consensus

["Murray Cumming" <murrayc murrayc com>]

>> Is there anything about g-s-t that makes you think that it would be
>> impossible in future to allow
>> 1. A sysadmin to configure multiple computers/users.
>> 2. A sysadmin to prevent users from overriding his work, or even being
>> aware that they could try. (After all, those users will not have the
>> root
>> password).
>>
>> Personally, I don't see a conflict.
>
> That isn't the point at all. It's not that there's a conflict. The
> question is: what is gnome-system-tools *for*.
>
> In your mail you imply both that it's for admins and that it's for home
> users. Which is it?

At the moment it's not much good for admins, but it makes life easier for
self-admining home users and very small networks.

I don't know whether a future sane remote sysadmin system such as you
would describe would be part of g-s-t or even interact with it. Hopefull
it could if it needs to.

> What I'm really looking for to support g-s-t is a
> definition of what it *is* in terms of target audience and long term
> direction.

Yes, that's fair. I'm not a g-s-t developer, so I can't really answer that.

It's clearly targetted at home users and small networks at the moment. I
hope that it aims to help large corporate networks in the future.

> If you look at the end user prefs list Seth did, what should be added;
> and which items in the list does g-s-t provide.
>
>> > End users having to change systemwide settings in /etc for _desktops_
>> is
>> > a bug, and building UI for doing so is not the right fix.
>>
>> How will I setup my dial-up or DSL without this?
>
> In FC3 networking will basically be configured by the logged in user (or
> simply automatically), at least in part. FC4 will move closer to that
> model. This is for desktops, the systemwide setup is still there for
> servers, etc.
>
>>  How will I add a user so
>> that my friend can use the same computer.
>
> This is an exception, yes. In a deployment of >1 machine you would have
> a sysadmin tool that modified LDAP/NIS type of thing. For a home user,
> you want a *simple* dialog that changes /etc/passwd.
>
>> > the end goal should be that
>> > nothing in the "end user setting" category should require the root
>> > password, it's a bug if anything does. That means that end user
>> settings
>> > can just be in control center or the panel.
>>
>> Some end-user settings affect more than one user.
>
> There's date and time, and /etc/passwd. There isn't a lot else. All the
> hardware config sort of stuff can be either automatic or per-user.
>
> You have to go top-down to figure this all out, e.g. the list of end
> user prefs I posted. Which of them affect all users at once? Of those,
> where should they live in the UI? And how close is g-s-t to providing
> them?
>
> Let's look at this concretely; based on g-s-t screenshots page, the
> items are:
>
>  - users and groups
>  - date and time
>  - network
>  - bootloaders
>  - runlevel
>
> I would say:
>  - users add/remove, date and time should be in gnome

I agree.

Actually, date/time seems like one of those things that should be
automatic in future, once you have some kind of network set up. But until
then we need it.

>  - groups is an admin feature

re. groups: That's a good point. I had not thought of that before.

>  - the network tool is basically wrong in concept; the config should be
>    automatic and/or per-user for the most part
>    (yes, small environments with static IPs can use a tool like this;
>     but end users shouldn't need the tool, and large deployments will
>     use something scalable such as LDAP or at least scripts)

Until it is automatic, a tool like this is necessary, and all distros
currently provide something to do it. DSL is very popular. And people are
still using dial-up. I have not seen anybody suggest any automatic way for
those things to be setup now or in the future, dull as that is.

>  - bootloaders is a geek feature
>  - runlevel/services is a server feature, it makes no sense for desktop

Yes.

> What I would do, if I were deciding, would be:
>  - add user (but not groups) and date/time to control-center and iterate
>    them forward as part of the overall desktop design
>  - convert the rest of g-s-t to gnome-admin-tools and focus on
>    the SMB/small-deployment system administrator, and perhaps
>    also the technically advanced user; maybe gnome-nettool
>    is in this category too
>
> Anyway, I'm giving specifics but the specifics are just meant as
> examples. The real point is, I haven't seen anyone define the overall
> plan, or the target audience, or what end user benefit/experience we're
> aiming for.

That's very worthwhile. Thanks.

Murray Cumming
murrayc murrayc com
www.murrayc.com
www.openismus.com