Re: Major change in desktop handling

[Malcolm Tredinnick <malcolm commsecure com au>]

[Intentionally pruning the CC list, since this is a desktop issue only.]

I am going to regret this, but I have just started to force myself to
use Nautilus for a couple of things to see how the other half lives and
having it scribble all over my home directory without reason is worse
than an all heat, no light debate on d-d-l...

On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 12:11:09AM +0100, MArk Finlay wrote:
[...]
> I really don't see how anyone can concider the current situation ideal:
> You have a desktop that is stored in ~/Desktop, on which you have a
> launcher to get to $HOME (in essence the equivelent of pressing up in
> nautilus). Now you are looking at $HOME in which there is a Desktop
> folder. You click on this and are now looking at your desktop, but in a
> nautilus window. You are in essence going around in circles.

You do not explain what would possess somebody to behave like this
unintentionally (note your example is not "going around in circles",
either -- it is a different view of the same information, which you may
want for some reason). If they are just randomly clicking through their
folders in Nautilus, then any layout is just as good as any other. If
they are trying to manoeuvre to another directory, then they are
unlikely to go home->desktop->home->desktop->home->directory-of-choice.

> The alternative : $HOME as desktop. People who don't like change (ie.
> "put those damn buttons back the way they should be" ;) ) tend to say
> "but my home folder is so full of stuff, i don't want that stuff all
> over my desktop". But that is trash, these people would be very easily
> migrated: All you do is create a ~/Files directory and move ~/* into it.

Some people may claim that their $HOME is full of stuff. Others may say
that their $HOME is already organised as they like it and that more
things than just Nautilus use $HOME. If I log into my account on any
machine with my home directory mounted, I land in $HOME. Your proposal
breaks this by landing me in a directory that is only relevant as a
filesystem view of my graphical desktop. To actually get to my useful
file hierarchy, I need to change to another directory.

[...]
> For those of us who aren't afraid to change we can embrace this and use
> the default folders provided by gnome(in the future), and ones we create
> ourselves, to organise our files;

Wow. Not even being subtle about insulting people who hold a different
legitimate viewpoint. What a rational debating strategy; should go far.

> of software that encourages users to keep themselves organised. The home
> folder does the opposite of this. Everything gets thrown in there. Every
> file created, every file download, every e-mail attachment saved. It is
> perpetually a mess for 99.99% of linux users.

Your supporting evidence is ...? A survey of my co-workers that I took
just now reveals that 83.3% of them have an organised home directory
with a hierarchy under it that suits how they work (two out of twelve
arguably have just dumped everything into $HOME, but that suits them, so
each to their own). However, my sample is obviously not suitably
representative. I would contend that yours is not either. That is a real
problem in these debates -- nobody has knowledge of our user base, so we
are all just guessing. Everybody has some experience to draw from, but
nothing that is overall representative (if you do not believe that,
consider why _any_ decision at all about what goes into the desktop or
how to implement something takes a long thread on a mailing list
somewhere).

> But when all these files are coming on to your desktop you have to do
> something with them. This encourages users to organise consistenly. I
> can tell you - i really don't miss the days of the monthly sorting of
> the home folder. Now I have Music, Video, Documents, Projects,
> Patches, Photos, Images folders on my desktop and as things land on
> the desktop i sort them to the appropriate folder.

So your current habit is to move things around twice instead of putting
them where you want them the first time. Just be aware that other people
may have different working habits.

[...]
> So yeah, I really don't see how we can loose. Users who like to horde
> everything in one massive folder can do that if they like, but I don't
> think that many will choose to work that way once they've been
> introduced to $home as desktop. Why keep a users files one click away
> from them when they can be immediately on hand?

I think part of the problem with your argument is that is solely hinged
on the "users put _everything_ into $HOME" hypothesis.

You really need to do more convincing along the lines of why files that
I have reason to view in their on-disk layout representation should be
"corrupted" to the needs of the Nautilus files, which I do not need to
view in such a fashion. Look at it from the point fo view of somebody
who does not use Nautilus for everything, but does use Nautilus a little
(so there will be some files in ~/Desktop).

Malcolm

-- 
If it walks out of your refrigerator, LET IT GO!!