Re: [Usability] Media Controls

[Alan Horkan <horkana maths tcd ie>]

On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Bastien Nocera wrote:

> Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2005 21:15:34 +0100
> From: Bastien Nocera <hadess hadess net>
> To: Alan Horkan <horkana maths tcd ie>
> Cc: Tim Steenvoorden <timlists lapis demon nl>, usability gnome org
> Subject: Re: [Usability] Media Controls
>
> On Sat, 2005-10-29 at 20:43 +0100, Alan Horkan wrote:
> > On Sat, 29 Oct 2005, Tim Steenvoorden wrote:
> <snip>
> > > Very neat because they don't use "Open..."- or "New.."-items.
> > > * Totem uses a firs menu called "Movie" (which is bad, you can also play
>
> Why is it bad exactly? Totem is a movie player, and can also play audio
> files. But it's mainly a movie player.

Why is it good?  Surely you had some strong idea to justify not using a
File menu like most applications?

> > idea and some developers took it as encouragement to get rid of the file
> > menu entirely.  (I have bug report on the issue I should do some follow up
>
> You've already filed this bug nearly a year ago:
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=160274
>
> <snip>
> > > music => just call it "File"). It puts "Eject" and "Play / Pause"
> > > somewhere mixed between "Open / Location / CD" etc. and the Recent
> > > Files. "Next" and "Previous" are placed in another menu: "Go" (just like
> > > HIG says), but: "Previous" should be *before* "Next".
> >
> > I'd love for you to file a request against Totem encouraging them to use a
> > File menu but in all likelyhood the request will be not be accepted but
> > perhaps it is worth reminding the Totem developers there are people who do
> > not appreciate this inconsistency.
>
> What consistency problem? The Movie menu relates to operations on the
> movie, the go menu on navigation inside the movie.

Not a problem from your point of view as the developer of a Movie
application but as part of Gnome it would be better to use a File menu
like most other Gnome applications and most other mass market media
players (Realplayer, Quicktime, Windows Media Player).

> <snip>
> > > * Many apps use a combined "Play / Pause"-item (Totem, SJ) or use a
> > > toogle-item (Muine). HIG says don't use the same button for play and
> > > pause.
> >
> > Totem has declined to follow the HIG recommendation on including a stop
> > and (if I recall correctly) also declined to entertain patches which might
> > implement such an option button the rest followed from there.
>
> What's that got to do with what Tim was talking about? And, as it's been
> discussed many times, the Stop button is unneeded, that's why we don't
> have one.

The HIG seemed to think it was a good idea and you disagreed. As the
author of Totem it is fair enough for you to try out something different
especially when Totem was one among many and you were developing it
largely for yourself.  However when Totem became the default media player
in Gnome you clearly were not developing it just for yourself anymore and
for the default media player in Gnome fail to follow the Guidelines is
bizarre.

The way I saw it the situation involved various people trying to convince
you to change your application to follow the guidelines rather than you
proving the HIG wrong.  I think it is a shame the HIG failed in this case
but are the Guidelines really supposed to reflect what is there rather
than try to set a standard?

Maybe a consistent Open Source desktop is impossible, maybe it is just too
difficult to get so many different people to agree to follow a standard.
Like I said I'm surpised no one released a HIG complaint versions of Totem
(and at the time you seemed very unwilling to accept such patch if it were
provided, making it that much more difficult to support an alternative
behaviour).  I guess no one wanted to follow the HIG enough to keep
arguing with you about it risk being forced to maintain Totem.

> There's already a bug opened about making Totem's play/pause button a
> toggle button. I would like to see this implemented and have the chance
> to test it before making a decision on whether to use it.
> http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162949

That would be great.  If testing shows this to be a better solution than
following what was recommended by the HIG then there would be good reason
to change the guidelines but in the meantime the default media player is
in conflict with the HIG and I think it is a failure of the HIG if
developer cannot be convinced to follow the standard first and then extend
it later after there is evidence to show they really have thought out a
better answer than whoever wrote the HIG.

I realise I am being arguementative and it is great when developers try
out new ideas but I think Gnome would be a lot better if developers
embraced first and extended later (embrace the HIG, and embrace the
example of the media players in the mass market).

Sincerely

Alan Horkan

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