Re: [Usability] Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo shortcut)

[Alan Horkan <horkana maths tcd ie>]

For those of you on the usability list wondering what this is about, a few
weeks ago I asked for the GIMP to follow the Gnome HIG, KDE Guidelines,
Apple Guidelines and Adobe Photoshop and use Ctrl+Shift+Z as the
keybinding for Redo.

There is more than a little resistance to the idea but the change is
currently in CVS (thanks to Dave Neary) and expert advice helping to back
up the decision would be appreciated.  The ability for users to set their
own custom keybindings is reasonably well known especially among more
experienced GIMP users, but people feel very strongly about keeping the
old keybinding as the default.

Those of you who use GIMP and would like it to at least try and follow the
Gnome Human Interface Guidelines should try and help make it happen.  The
GIMP has set an example for so many other applications before the HIG
arrived and continues to do so that I think it is important to encourage
the GIMP to follow the HIG and address some of the issue the GIMP
developers have with the HIG.

The most recent thread about Redo on the Gimp developer mailing list:
http://www.mail-archive.com/gimp-developer lists xcf berkeley edu/msg05085.html

Dave Neary is not subscribed to the usability mailing list so please reply
to his original message and make sure to include at least the gimp devel
list in CC list of your replies
gimp-developer lists xcf berkeley edu

- Alan H.


On Wed, 24 Sep 2003, David Neary wrote:

> Date: Wed, 24 Sep 2003 23:39:44 +0200
> From: David Neary <dneary free fr>
> To: Nathan Carl Summers <rock gimp org>
> Cc: usr352 wanadoo es,
>      Gimp Developer List <gimp-developer lists xcf berkeley edu>,
>      Branko Collin <collin xs4all nl>, usability mail gnome org
> Subject: [Usability] Re: [Gimp-developer] Redo shortcut (was: Undo
>     shortcut)
>
> Nathan Carl Summers wrote:
> > I agree.  Gimp's undo and redo feature differs from many other programs in
> > that when comparing subtle changes it is useful to switch rapidly between
> > the "before" and "after" views, while for a program such as a word
> > processor, that is probably not a useful thing to do.  This being the
> > case, this particular need of GIMP users was probably not considered by
> > the HIG.
>
> I'm sure that ergonomy was considered for Photoshop when they
> chose Ctrl-Shift-Z for Redo... I do think it's overstating our
> importance somewhat to say that what's good for a large portion
> of the rest of the world is not good for us.
>
> > Personally, I compare between the "before" and "after" by holding down
> > control and hitting z or r as necessary.  For some changes, I switch
> > several times a second, as the human eye is remarkably able to detect
> > small differences when they are animated.
>
> You will be able to continue to do this, using the Wonders of
> Dynamic Shortcuts. However, I think that in the general case we
> should try to adhere to the keybindings which people expect if
> they have used other applications (and not just imaging
> applications).
>
> > Switching between views this fast with accuracy is simply not possible
> > using Shift-Ctrl-Z due the the physiology of the human hand. The optimal
> > hand position is left on the shift and control and right on the z, with
> > the finger on the shift moving every other beat of the other hand and the
> > finger on the control key staying still.
>
> That depends where the z is on the keyboard :)
>
> > > So, if it's possible to have two different keybindings for the same command
> > > I'd like very much to have both.
> >
> > Unfortunately, it is not.  Really, GTK should be made more flexable in
> > this regard, but it is not a trival problem, due to how GTK handles
> > accelerators.
>
> I believe we could hard-code two keybindings to work as the
> default, couldn't we? Then if the keymapping is changed, you're
> on your own. Perhaps I'm talking through my hat here.
>
> > I'm sure that in this case most usability people would
> > say that actually being able to use the feature is more important than
> > consistancy with some other apps.  Especially because this particular
> > funciton isn't particularly consistant between apps.
>
> It's pretty consistent. And the usability people have
> considerably more experience with this than either of us :)
> I've added the usability list as a CC to see what they think.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave.
>
> --
>        David Neary,
>        Lyon, France
>   E-Mail: bolsh gimp org
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