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Re: [orca-list] Fwd: Re: [Zim-wiki] another accessibility question

Hi Jaap.

https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/GtkWidget.html#gtk-widget-get-accessible

https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#atk-object-set-name

That said, even if you do that, I'll still likely have to make a change
in Orca. When I made the change in Orca master to piece together cell
renderers, I noticed that when Orca finds accessible table cells whose
accessible parent is an accessible table cell, Orca looks to the
children. It does so because we *do* see multiple cell renderers, as is
done in your app, fairly often. The difference is that, in my
experience, only one renderer is exposing accessible information, which
is not the case in your app.

Making the additional change to Orca is something I plan to do. And
piecing together the content is something I've already done (though only
in master so it gets thoroughly tested). Which is a long way of saying,
thank you very, very much for your interest in this! But I believe the
user experience is already fixed for your app in Orca master, and even
if you make the change I suggest, it won't yet work in Orca stable.
So.... Do what you think makes the most sense, I guess.

Thanks again!
--joanie

On 05/09/2017 07:50 AM, Jaap Karssenberg wrote:

Hi Joanie,

I'm the developer of "zim", I temporarily joined the list to discuss
directly.

I would like to resolve the issue by setting appropriate hints from the
application. You mention we could set the "accessible name on the parent
cell" to let Orca know what to read for the column row. Going over the
Gtk / Atk documentation I can't find a mention of such a property. Could
you point me in the right direction how to do this?

On the topic of packing multiple cellrenderers into a single column: I'm
not entirely sure which use cases justify this, my guess is that it is
intended to allow rendering complex objects in a single column where
multiple columns don't work conceptually. Thus I would consider all
cells in the column as a single item. But mileage may vary with other
applications, so I fully understand your hesitance to change the
behavior of Orca for this.

In the case of zim I use this rendering because I can't achieve the same
visual effect with multiple columns. Reason is that when packing the
cellrenderers we can control how they fill the available space, columns
allow for less control of the layout.

Regards,

Jaap

On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 11:05 AM Vojtěch Polášek <krecoun gmail com
<mailto:krecoun gmail com>> wrote:

    I forwarded your description to the Orca mailing list and here is
    answer from Orca developer. I think that setting that accessible
    name would be the easiest way, if it is possible.

    Thanks alot,
    Vojta
    -------- Přeposlaná zpráva --------
    Předmět:  Re: [orca-list] Fwd: Re: [Zim-wiki] another accessibility
    question
    Datum:    Mon, 8 May 2017 04:37:48 -0400
    Od:       Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs igalia com> <mailto:jdiggs igalia com>
    Komu:     Vojtěch Polášek <krecoun gmail com> <mailto:krecoun gmail com>
    Kopie:    orca-list <orca-list gnome org> <mailto:orca-list gnome org>



    Hi Vojtěch.

    As a general rule, Orca avoids piecing together content in table cells
    because the presentation might not come out right. It's early enough in
    the release cycle that I'm willing to make a change and we can all see
    what, if anything breaks.

    That said, visually the "cell" looks to me like a multi-column row. If
    the tree had multiple columns, I believe Orca would present the full
    row. Alternatively, the developer could set the accessible name on the
    parent cell to contain what Orca should present.

    --joanie

    On 05/08/2017 03:42 AM, Vojtěch Polášek wrote:
    > Hi,
    > 
    > could someone with knowledge of PyGTK accessibility please post his opinion?
    > 
    > You can see behavior of this widget in Latest Zim.
    > 
    > Thank you very much,
    > 
    > Vojta
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > -------- Přeposlaná zpráva --------
    > Předmět:        Re: [Zim-wiki] another accessibility question
    > Datum:  Mon, 08 May 2017 07:18:44 +0000
    > Od:     Jaap Karssenberg <jaap karssenberg gmail com> <mailto:jaap karssenberg gmail com>
    > Komu:   Vojtěch Polášek <krecoun gmail com> <mailto:krecoun gmail com>, zim-wiki lists launchpad net 
<mailto:zim-wiki lists launchpad net>

    > 
    > 
    > 
    > The column with both the name of the page and the number of children is
    > defined in "zim/gui/pageindex.py" line 339 to 350.
    > 
    > This link points directly to that line in the current
    > version: 
https://github.com/jaap-karssenberg/zim-desktop-wiki/blob/022bfef5b6d55c84832d5f95d8e3e0b111f53864/zim/gui/pageindex.py#L339
    > 
    > In these lines two gtk cellrenderers are defined and packed into a
    > single column. As far as I'm aware this is a normal way to use the gtk
    > column, not a hack or custom widget.
    > 
    > Regards,
    > 
    > Jaap
    > 
    > 
    > On Mon, May 8, 2017 at 9:09 AM Vojtěch Polášek 

    <krecoun gmail com > <mailto:krecoun gmail com> <mailto:krecoun gmail com> <mailto:krecoun gmail com>> 
wrote:
    > 
    >     HI,
    > 
    >     could you please point me to a source file where this tree structure
    >     is defined? I would like to send it to people who understand
    >     accessibility more than I do.
    > 
    >     Thanks,
    > 
    >     Vojta
    > 
    > 
    >     Dne 27.4.2017 v 16:50 Jaap Karssenberg napsal(a):
    >>     PS deep respect if you are able to navigate the application just
    >>     by hearing. Both myself and my girlfriend tried it out but it is
    >>     really difficult even if you know the application behavior well.  
    >>
    >>     Which makes me wondering: how do you get started on a new
    >>     application, when you don't know how it works yet. Just trial and
    >>     error or do you have some other help for that? 
    >>
    >>     Regards, 
    >>
    >>     Jaap 
    >>
    >>     On Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 14:16 Jaap Karssenberg
    >>     <jaap karssenberg gmail com <mailto:jaap karssenberg gmail com> <mailto:jaap karssenberg gmail 
com> <mailto:jaap karssenberg gmail com>>
    >>     wrote:
    >>
    >>         Hi Vojta,
    >>
    >>         Just figured out how to enable Orca and gave it a try. I get
    >>         the same behavior as you, so I can test it.
    >>
    >>         I think something goes wrong because we pack two cellrenders
    >>         into one column object. Only the text of last one is read out
    >>         if there are children.
    >>
    >>         Not sure how to fix it. Since this is a normal list formatting
    >>         for the Gtk toolkit, I suspect there is an interface to
    >>         indicate what content should be read out. But searching on
    >>         google, I find very limited information for development of
    >>         accessible applications in Gtk / Atk.
    >>
    >>         Do you happen to know where to find resources or discussion
    >>         about adding accessibility hints to Gtk applications from the
    >>         developer side ?
    >>
    >>         Regards,
    >>
    >>         Jaap
    >>
    >>
    >>         On Wed, Apr 26, 2017 at 1:02 PM Vojtěch Polášek
    >>         <krecoun gmail com <mailto:krecoun gmail com> <mailto:krecoun gmail com> <mailto:krecoun 
gmail com>> wrote:
    >>
    >>             Hello,
    >>
    >>             thank you for fixing previous accessibility problem.
    >>             However, there is
    >>             another problem which was present also in previous stable
    >>             version.
    >>
    >>             It happens when I browse through the tree control
    >>             representing index. If
    >>             I focus on a page which has subpages, my screenreader
    >>             announces only
    >>             number of subpages and not a name of the page. If I focus
    >>             on a page
    >>             which has no subpages, the name is announced correctly.
    >>
    >>             Could you please look into this?
    >>
    >>             Thank you,
    >>
    >>             Vojta
    >>
    >>
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    > 
    > 
    > ______________________________

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