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Re: [orca-list] the speakupmodified dists from speakupmodified.org

I actually think we agree more than we disagree. I don't think the
problem is that the learning curve is too steep for Emacs but, as you
say, there are a lot of alternatives that work in a way more similar to
what people are used to, so why would they put up with the frustration
of learning to use Emacs just for text editing when Gedit does what they
want, and it looks and feels like the editors they're used to. I agree,
in this case, they won't learn Emacs, they'll stick with Gedit. As we
both said, I think a lot of it has to do with whether you think it's
worth going up that learning curve or not. I might not learn Emacs just
for text editing, but when I figure in DirEd mode, the shell buffer, Org
mode and so on, I think it's well worth it.

I think of some of the applications I've learned to use over the years,
like Qwitter, VI, mutt and probably more and these all are not
conventional or standard interfaces, but I learned them anyway. Also,
moving from JAWS to NVDA to Orca required some serious adjustments, but
again I thought it was worth it. I don't have anything but anecdotal
evidence, but I don't think learning Emacs was any harder than some of
these other applications.

I agree people get used to conventions like control+x, control+c and so
on, but I claim they aren't any more intuitive than control+y, control+w
and the Emacs equivalents. In fact, I think once you get used to marking
and cutting and pasting text in Emacs, it's hard to understand why other
editors and operating systems don't follow similar conventions.

It's interesting that you mention the alt key, but on my Ubuntu system,
the alt key doesn't do anything for me. I use the F10 key which brings
up the menu in my GUI applications as well as the menu in Emacs.
Granted, this is the exception and not the rule, and the menus work a
bit differently in Emacs than they do in GUI applications, but you can
still use it to find a command you didn't know existed or remind you how
to use a command you forgot how to use.

On 09/07/12 15:35, Alex Midence wrote:

Oh, sure it's more suitable.  Unfortunately, pc novices today are not taught
how to use a computer with text-based applications.  It's all Windows and
mostly Jaws.  So, they come to Linux from either there or Mac OSX both of
which are graphical environments.  Cases where you get someone who is
completely new to computers and can be taught first how to use text based
apps and then moved to gui stuff are very rare.  Perhaps, in places like
India where Linux is much more common you may find this but I don't think
so.  Maybe, Krishnakant or Balaram can chime in on this if they are lurking.
Blind users *are* taught to use hot keys, however but, with completely
different values.  To them, c-n means new document, c-p means print
document, c-c means copy text, c-v means paste text, c-f means find, c-b
means bolded text, c-x means cut text to clipboard and so forth and so on.
If you get stuck, type alt and hit your right arrow to go through the menus.
Anything that uses these values and these key strokes i.e. Libre Office,
Gedit and a whole lot of other applications besides will be easier for
people to gravitate to than something like Emacs where not one of those
values I mentioned means the same thing.  
Alex M

-----Original Message-----
From: robhill es co nz [mailto:robhill es co nz] 
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 3:19 PM
To: Alex Midence
Cc: 'Christopher Chaltain'; 'orca-list'
Subject: Re: [orca-list] the speakupmodified dists from speakupmodified.org

Hello Alex and list,

Actually, no.  The GUI is overwhelmingly the norm in the sighted world, so
VI users think that is the only way of doing things- or perhaps they learned
the GUI whilst they still had sight.  But text, e.g. in the form of emacs,
is far more suited to blind use.  It's linearity fits with speech and
Braille so much better than the 2D nature of the GUI.  I suggest a VI novice
who had been exposed to neither the GUI nor text interfaces would find the
learning curve of each about the same.  

Rob



Alex Midence writes:
 > Disagree all you like.  The facts speek for themselves.  Ask around and
find  > out how many people use Emacs or Emacspeak.  It's depressingly few.
Compare  > that to how many use Gedit and Libre Office.  A simple poll on
any list you  > like should suffice to give you an idea.  I'm an avid
Emacsoid myself and I  > wish it were otherwise.  I've even gone so far as
to spend several hours of  > my time writing an introductory guide to it for
novice users of Linux in an  > effort to increase the user base somewhat.
People just seem to find it  > easier to master Libre Office and Gedit than
they do Emacs.  Part of the  > reason is that unconventional interface you
mentioned.  It introduces  > complexity and difficulty or the perception
thereof.  The harder something  > is to master, the fewer people will want
to master it.  Their need for the  > software has to be high enough to
justify the extra time and effort.  If  > they find out there's something
out there that does the same thing but with  > less effort on their part,
they're gone.  The only thing that will  > counteract this phenomenon is if
they are required to use it by some outside  > entity like their job or
something like  that.
 >
 > Alex M
 > -----Original Message-----
 > From: orca-list-bounces gnome org [mailto:orca-list-bounces gnome org] On

Behalf Of Christopher Chaltain  > Sent: Monday, July 09, 2012 9:56 AM  >

To: 'orca-list'
 > Subject: Re: [orca-list] the speakupmodified dists from
speakupmodified.org  >  > I don't agree that the Emacs learning curve is so
steep it can only be  > mastered by a few. It doesn't use the the standard
conventions found in a  > lot of Windows and GUI applications, but that's
true of a lot of the  > applications embraced by the blind, especially on
Linux. To me, it just  > comes down to whether it's worth climbing that
learning curve, but that's  > true for all applications.
 >
 > On 09/07/12 08:07, Alex Midence wrote:
 > > How would the GUI stuff interfere?  Ubuntu comes with all the gui  > >
bells and whistles you could want and yet, it has a talking installer.  
 > > And, the reason they don't make Xemacs the default is that people  > >
wouldn't be able to use it as easily as they can LIbre Office or Open  > >
Office.  The learning curve for Emacs is too steep for adoption by  > > more
than a small specialized and commited user base.  For the types  > > that
just want to get in there and get things done coming at the  > > system
cold, it's a major turnoff.  That stuff has to be included in  > > there.  I
don't think it's the GUI stuff.  I think it's more that it  > > just is not
a priority for a lot of distributions or that it just  > > doesn't get that
much attention.  Besides, the GUI stuff isn't a  > > factor in Speakup
modified installations with software speech.  
 > > There's absolutely no GUI on a Debian Business card iso.  It's a real

slimmed down bit of Linux and it is pure text.

 > >
 > > Alex M
 > >
 > >
 > >
 > > -----Original Message-----
 > > From: Jude DaShiell [mailto:jdashiel shellworld net]  > > Sent: Monday,
July 09, 2012 2:51 AM  > > To: Alex Midence  > > Cc: Thomas Ward; orca-list

Subject: Re: [orca-list] the speakupmodified dists from  > >

speakupmodified.org  > >  > > It's all the G.U.I. stuff that gets put on
systems.  The openoffice  > > suite with all of its dependencies is one
piece that can be stripped  > > from initial distribution and added in
later.  Probably xemacs could  > > replace openoffice at a huge space
savings too.  Probably not so many  > > dependencies and most of the
functionality of openoffice will be there  > > too. On Sun, 8 Jul 2012, Alex
Midence wrote:
 > >
 > >> You are absolutely right.  I'd forgotten about the talking Arch  > >>
option.  To me, Debian's example is the most impressive.  The  > >> business
card sized iso which is like 30 or 40 megs or something like  > >> that has
software speech built in to it.  goes to show you that it  > >> doesn't take
up much space on an image and that it's most likely  > >> something else
that prevents more distributions from making this option  > available.
 > >>
 > >> Alex M
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >> On 7/8/2012 4:14 PM, Jude DaShiell wrote:
 > >>> Add archlinux to that list please.  There's a talkingarch version  >

that had espeak added to it. On Sun, 8 Jul 2012, Alex Midence wrote:

 > >>>
 > >>>> The only distros I know of that have speakup with software speech  >

functionality out of the box are Debian and grml.

 > >>>>
 > >>>> Alex M
 > >>>>
 > >>>> On 7/8/2012 4:24 AM, Thomas Ward wrote:
 > >>>>> Hi Mattias,
 > >>>>>
 > >>>>> To the best of my memory yes. The distributions from the Speakup  >

Modified website are only configured for hardware synths. I'm not  >
aware of any speakup modified distributions that use ESpeakup or  >
something like that for software TTS. :D  > >>>>>  > >>>>> On 7/7/12,

mattias <mj mjw se> wrote:
 > >>>>>> will them only work with hardware tts?
 > >>>>> _______________________________________________
 > >>>>> orca-list mailing list
 > >>>>> orca-list gnome org
 > >>>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
 > >>>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
 > >>>>> The manual is at
 > >>>>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.
 > >>>>> html The FAQ is at
 > >>>>> http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
 > >>>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find  >

out how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

 > >>>>
 > >>>> _______________________________________________
 > >>>> orca-list mailing list
 > >>>> orca-list gnome org
 > >>>> https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
 > >>>> Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
 > >>>> The manual is at
 > >>>> http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.ht
 > >>>> ml The FAQ is at
 > >>>> http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
 > >>>> Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out

how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

 > >>>>
 > >>>>
 > >>>>
 > >>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
 > >>> Windows Pants: made entirely of patches on patches each with a  > >>>
picture of a Microsoft Vacuum Cleaner; a computer mouse, or a dollar  > >
sign.
 > >>>
 > >>> Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>  > >>>
<http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
 > >>>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >>
 > >
 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
 > > Windows Pants: made entirely of patches on patches each with a picture

of a Microsoft Vacuum Cleaner; a computer mouse, or a dollar sign.

 > >
 > > Jude <jdashiel-at-shellworld-dot-net>  > >
<http://www.shellworld.net/~jdashiel/nj.html>
 > >
 > >
 > > _______________________________________________
 > > orca-list mailing list
 > > orca-list gnome org
 > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
 > > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
 > > The manual is at
 > > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
 > > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
 > > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org Find out  >

how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp

 > >
 >
 >
 > --
 > Christopher (CJ)
 > chaltain at Gmail
 >
 >
 > _______________________________________________
 > orca-list mailing list
 > orca-list gnome org
 > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/orca-list
 > Visit http://live.gnome.org/Orca for more information on Orca.
 > The manual is at
 > http://library.gnome.org/users/gnome-access-guide/nightly/ats-2.html
 > The FAQ is at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
 > Log bugs and feature requests at http://bugzilla.gnome.org  > Find out
how to help at http://live.gnome.org/Orca/HowCanIHelp
 >
 >
 > 





-- 
Christopher (CJ)
chaltain at Gmail
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