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Hello, The idea whether we should have a separate accessible distro or the "normal" one. I would put it slightly differently, the "normal" one may be would be more correctly called the general one, and this general one should be reasonably accessible but for the very best accessibility you may need to configure it. You then may have a varient optimised for accessibility, or possibly even optimised for one type of user eg. blind and VI users. This would be like the ubuntu varients like edbuntu is optimised for an educational setting. Also this varient system I don't see as a specially designed option, just an optimised option as it is using all the stuff available in the general version but things have been tweaked for a particular user group as the default (IE. one varient can be converted to another without reinstalling the system). The whole idea of the distro is this make the system suitable for your needs, they are based on either the same tool sets or very similar ones , just including what they expect their users to want, etg. GRML is for those of us who love the command line, ubuntu is for those who like a GUI, and I probably shouldn't say what I think some of the other distros are for. As for your idea of a fully accessible distro, I think oralux (www.oralux.org) may be trying to do what you were describing. Also for those knowing how to use the Linux commandline (I mean the command line is their choice, not that they need to know how to configure the system fully) then GRML (www.grml.org) almost fits what you describe (I put the GRML cd in my computer boot the machine from CD, at the boot screen (this is the only part where I have to guess when to type) I enter grml swspeak blind and this then boots the system ready for use with a software synth and Braille display (swspeak for software speech and blind for braille). There is one point where I have to type without speech output but it tells me what to type and when, and then I have a fully accessible text based system). The greatest problem I have with Linux is knowing which distro to use. Michael Whapples On 23/12/42 20:59, Anthony Sales wrote: Thanks for all of the feedback I have received so far on Vibuntu. I am probably going to open a huge can of worms, but here goes... The issue of whether there should be a special version of Ubuntu or a single Ubuntu which incorporates all of the necessary accessibility features is a complex and controversial issue. There have always been two conflicting theories regarding accessibility: one is that an operating system should be accessible to absolutely everybody no matter what their language or disability might be, the other school of thought is that there should be separate tools optimised for the target group involved. This is not easy to answer, in an ideal world I would like to think that a single system could be devised that was flexible enough to be universally accessible, but in practice as the empirical evidence shows this is difficult to achieve and as far as I know no-one has yet managed to produce such a system. (e.g. I recently had to convert some multimedia software to work on an Arabic language system and was horrified to find that the Arabic language goes from right to left...)One of the dangers of producing a single universal system is that by its very nature it must make compromises if it is to be truly accessible to all, such that it will meet everyone's needs to some extent, but no-ones completely. Therefore in recent years I have leaned more and more towards specialist software written for a specific target group i.e. the visually impaired. As long as this software is compatible with other generic software such that communication and the transfer of information between the different systems is possible I can see no reason to reject this approach. I have never heard a visually impaired person complain because they can access the same information but in a different way, but they rightly complain like hell if they cannot get access to the information at all, or without great effort on their part. But I would still like the specialised VI version to be usable by sighted people through a GUI interface, so that pupils at school or different family members could all use the same computer. Although I think Ubuntu is absolutely brilliant if you are sighted, the fact that several people have independently started to create their own specialised remixes for the visually impaired is evidence enough that the mainstream distro is not yet accessible or easy enough to use if you are visually impaired unless you have quite a high level of IT skills to begin with. The vast majority of visually impaired people are not hackers and don't want to be. They just want to browse the internet, send e-mails and write reports etc. My fantasy distro would be one that started speaking either during or just after boot up and then allowed you to use all of the GUI apps (including admin apps) without any tweaking, and provided magnification either instantly or at least at the press of a button. There should be clear instructions provided right out of the box so even a beginner with a bit of common sense could learn how to use the system independently, without having to trawl through forums and mailing lists etc. I think that trying to optimise the main version of Ubuntu for VI users would be too much of a sacrifice or change to make. It would require getting rid of the default orange colour scheme and desktop background for something with better contrast and larger easier to read fonts. It would require a speech engine and/or magnification to start up without having to press any keys etc, it would require including apps that are not in the main edition and probably removing some to make room for necessary packages. For all of these reasons I really do believe that in at least the short term a specialised version of Ubuntu is necessary. The whole point of Linux is freedom, and we shouldn't be afraid of letting people split into special interest groups. Ubuntu already supports this approach by releasing Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Xubuntu, Edbuntu, Server Editions, Mythbuntu, Ubuntu Studio etc. I think it would be great if Ubuntu themselves released a special version optimised for VI users, but I feel that their priority at the moment is getting Ubuntu onto as many computers as possible and rightly so. They have done wonders for the popularity of Linux and I would not criticise any of their policies. They have far more expertise and resources that I or probably any other of the individual developers interested in specialised VI versions do, but the bottom line is do they consider the VI community a significant enough group to devote a whole version to. I wish they would, then I wouldn't have to spend hours fiddling around to get something I think is fit for purpose. Sometimes you just have to get off your arse and do something yourself if you want it done properly. I also agree that it would make more sense for the developers who have been working on this independently to collaborate in future, but again they may have different priorities, approaches and languages which can make working together impractical. I would of course be honoured if Ubuntu wanted to incorporate any of the changes I make into the main version but I would rather keep trying to solve the problems myself in parallel rather that expect or wait for other people to do it for me. I don't want to upset anyone, I am happy to contribute to other projects or even the main distro, and accept help, advice and suggestions from other people. We are all on the same side with similar goals, there are just different ways to achieve this. The fact is that Ubuntu, nor any other Linux distro (or windows or Mac for that matter) is yet fully accessible to a wide spectrum of VI users. I have read about Blind Linux but that fact it was in CZ meant I didn't think it would be accessible to a mono-lingual English Neanderthal like myself. I hope I haven't offended anyone or stepped on anyones toes <braces himself for a barrage of abuse and death-threats> I am still open to persuasion, feel free to send me convincing arguments why everything should go into the main distro, why different parties should be collaborating more effectively and hwy the US government won't admit the existance of UFO's etc.;) Tony Sales (aka drbongo) -----Original Message----- From: ubuntu-accessibility-bounces lists ubuntu com [mailto:ubuntu-accessibility-bounces lists ubuntu com] On Behalf Of Luke Yelavich Sent: 04 December 2008 00:06 To: ubuntu-accessibility lists ubuntu com Subject: Re: Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm (not) a man of wealthand taste! On Tue, Dec 02, 2008 at 11:20:21AM PST, Anthony Sales wrote: |