Re: [GnomeMeeting-list] MS netmeeting



On Sun, 10 Mar 2002, Damien Sandras spake thusly:

> 
> I'm seeing some weird things that could explain the problem :
> - in the first logs, you are sending about 600 packets to the remote, but
> only receiving 10. I don't think it is normal that you receive only 10
> packets.
> - in the last logs, there are 122 lost packets. I really think of a connection
> problem between you and the guy. Probably a router dropping packets ?

Even if there are packets being lost, shouldn't that just cause 
sound/picture to freeze?

Packet loss is a normal fact of the internet.  It happens.  That shouldn't 
cause a disconnection.  Shouldn't they be waitinf for an explicit 
dosconnect signal not just give up if the ride is bumpy?

> Is it possible for you to test from GM to GM with the same person? Or probably
> test from GM to OpenPhone (OpenPhone is a free H.323 application for windows
> that is also using the H.323 stack from Equivalence).

The person doesn't have linux, or we'd just be using gm.   I can look into 
openPhone.  My friend isn't technical (law student), so the interface 
would have to be simple.

Ryan

> 
> Thanks for feedback.
> 
> On Sat, Mar 09, 2002 at 07:03:51PM -0500, Ryan Leduc wrote:
> > 
> > I tried to connect again.  The other person was using netmeeting 3.01 
> > (4.4.3385)
> > 
> > Attached is gmdebug with some infor from running --debug
> > 
> > When i did a redirect (>) to file, the debug info didn't switch.  I forgot 
> > the tcsh command to redirect the error stream and didn't have time to look 
> > it up.
> > 
> > 
> > So, I was only able to get the last few screens after the disconnect.  
> > Hope that helps.
> > 
> > I did three tries:  1) no limit, 2)limit 30frames/sec 3) limit 
> > 10frames/sec
> > 
> > all disconnect after a few  minutes
> > 
> > Ryan
> > 
> > 
> > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Damien Sandras spake thusly:
> > 
> > > On Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 01:17:12PM -0500, Ryan Leduc wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > You would think an internet application would be more robust than that.
> > > 
> > > It is OpenSource. Feel free to send patches to improve the OpenH323 stack and/or GnomeMeeting. All patches are of course welcome!!
> > > 
> > > gnomemeeting --debug will give you a log
> > > Can you report it here if you find interesting things?
> > > 
> > > 
> > > > Is there a more verbose logging method for gm  (and a log file)
> > > > that I could use that might give enough info to find out what went wrong?
> > > > I wouldn't be able to try for a week, though.
> > > > 
> > > > Ryan
> > > > 
> > > > On Sun, 3 Mar 2002, Damien Sandras spake thusly:
> > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Packet loss between you and him ?
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > On Sun, Mar 03, 2002 at 11:53:07AM -0500, Ryan Leduc wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Hello,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > I'm having trouble connecting to someone using MS netmeeting (winME)
> > > > > > I'm using gm 0.84.0-3
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > We connect allright, but after about a minute, we get disconnected.
> > > > > > We reconnected, and then got disconnected again.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Any ideas?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Ryan
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > -- 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >   Ryan Leduc
> > > > > >   Assistant Professor                    Email: leduc McMaster ca
> > > > > >   Dept. of  Computing and Software       Tel: 905-525-9140 Ext. 27962
> > > > > >   Faculty of Engineering                 Fax: 905-524-0340
> > > > > >   McMaster University,                   Office: ITB/162
> > > > > >   Hamilton, Ontario  Canada L8S 4K1      http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/~leduc
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > ----  "Most of the time in our world, truth is just opinion." - M. Ondaatje 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > > Gnomemeeting-list mailing list
> > > > > > Gnomemeeting-list gnome org
> > > > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnomemeeting-list
> > > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > -- 
> > > > 
> > > >   Ryan Leduc
> > > >   Assistant Professor                    Email: leduc McMaster ca
> > > >   Dept. of  Computing and Software       Tel: 905-525-9140 Ext. 27962
> > > >   Faculty of Engineering                 Fax: 905-524-0340
> > > >   McMaster University,                   Office: ITB/162
> > > >   Hamilton, Ontario  Canada L8S 4K1      http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/~leduc
> > > > 
> > > > ----  "Most of the time in our world, truth is just opinion." - M. Ondaatje 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Gnomemeeting-list mailing list
> > > > Gnomemeeting-list gnome org
> > > > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnomemeeting-list
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > 
> >   Ryan Leduc
> >   Assistant Professor                    Email: leduc McMaster ca
> >   Dept. of  Computing and Software       Tel: 905-525-9140 Ext. 27962
> >   Faculty of Engineering                 Fax: 905-524-0340
> >   McMaster University,                   Office: ITB/162
> >   Hamilton, Ontario  Canada L8S 4K1      http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/~leduc
> > 
> > ----  "Most of the time in our world, truth is just opinion." - M. Ondaatje 
> > 
> 
> > gnomemeeting --debug
> >   0:02.575	  H323 Listener:814c078	H323	Awaiting TCP connections on port 1720
> >   0:02.580	  H323 Listener:814c078	TCP	Waiting on socket accept on ip$*:1720
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.067	0.043	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.131	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.195	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.259	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.323	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.387	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.429	0.042	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.493	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.557	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.621	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.685	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.728	0.043	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.793	0.065	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.856	0.063	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			58.920	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0
> > 58.
> > 
> > 84	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.027	0.043	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.090	0.063	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.155	0.065	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.218	0.063	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.282	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.346	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.389	0.043	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.453	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.517	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.581	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.645	0.064	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.688	0.043	
> > Out	291892549		0		Empty		0			59.752	0.064	
> > 
> >   9:27.397	           H323 Cleaner	RTP_UDP	Session 1, Shutting down read.
> >   9:27.397	           H323 Cleaner	RTP_UDP	Session 1, Shutting down write.
> >   9:27.397	           H323 Cleaner	RTP	Final statistics:
> >     packetsSent       = 852
> >     octetsSent        = 204480
> >     averageSendTime   = 29
> >     maximumSendTime   = 64
> >     minimumSendTime   = 0
> >     packetsReceived   = 9
> >     octetsReceived    = 4320
> >     packetsLost       = 0
> >     packetsTooLate    = 0
> >     packetsOutOfOrder = 0
> >     averageReceiveTime= 0
> >     maximumReceiveTime= 0
> >     minimumReceiveTime= 0
> >     jitter            = 3
> >   9:27.397	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Bandwidth request: -64.0kb/s, available: 10064.0kb/s
> >   9:27.397	           H323 Cleaner	H225	Sending release complete PDU: callRef=7028
> >   9:27.402	           H323 Cleaner	H225	Sending PDU:
> >   {
> >     q931pdu = {
> >       protocolDiscriminator = 8
> >       callReference = 7028
> >       from = destination
> >       messageType = ReleaseComplete
> >       IE: User-User = {
> >         25 c0 06 00 08 91 4a 00  04 58 08 11 00 c5 e3 64   %À....J..X...Åãd
> >         f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79 00  04 5a 96 8b cc 02 80 01   ñ.3Ö..y..Z..Ì...
> >         00                                                 .
> >       }
> >     }
> >     h225pdu = {
> >       h323_uu_pdu = {
> >         h323_message_body = releaseComplete {
> >           protocolIdentifier = 0.0.8.2250.0.4
> >           reason = undefinedReason <<null>>
> >           callIdentifier = {
> >             guid =  16 octets {
> >               c5 e3 64 f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79 00 04 5a 96 8b cc   Åãdñ 3Ö  y  Z  Ì
> >             }
> >           }
> >         }
> >         h245Tunneling = FALSE
> >       }
> >     }
> >   }
> >   08 02 9b 74 5a 7e 00 22  05 25 c0 06 00 08 91 4a   ...tZ~.".%À....J
> >   00 04 58 08 11 00 c5 e3  64 f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79   ..X...Åãdñ.3Ö..y
> >   00 04 5a 96 8b cc 02 80  01 00                     ..Z..Ì....
> >   9:27.404	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >   9:27.404	    H225 Answer:80f5ee8	H225	Read error (4): Interrupted system call
> >   9:27.404	    H225 Answer:80f5ee8	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >   9:27.404	    H225 Answer:80f5ee8	H225	Signal channel closed.
> >   9:30.071	           H323 Cleaner	H323
> > H323Transport::CleanUpOnTermination for H225
> > 
> >  Answer:80f5ee8
> >   9:30.071	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >   9:30.071	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::CleanUpOnTermination for H245:8179118
> >   9:30.071	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Connection ip$132.203.107.124:1449/7028 terminated.
> >   9:30.159	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: G.711-uLaw-64k{sw} <1>
> >   9:30.159	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: G.711-ALaw-64k{sw} <2>
> >   9:30.159	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: MS-GSM{sw} <3>
> >   9:30.160	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: LPC-10{sw} <4>
> >   9:30.160	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: GSM-06.10{sw} <5>
> >   9:30.160	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: H.261-QCIF <6>
> >   9:30.160	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: H.261-CIF <7>
> >   9:30.249	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Connection ip$132.203.107.124:1449/7028 deleted.
> > 
> > 
> > \
> > 
> > ----  2nd try  limiting to frames 0f 30/sec
> > 
> > 
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.068	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.111	0.043	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.175	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.239	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.303	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.367	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.431	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.474	0.043	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.538	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.604	0.066	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.666	0.062	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.730	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.772	0.042	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.836	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			57.900	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0	57.964	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.028	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.071	0.043	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.135	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.199	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.263	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.327	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.391	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.434	0.043	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.498	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.562	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.626	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.690	0.064	
> > Out	293579933		0		Empty		0			58.7
> > 32	0.042	
> > 
> >  12:22.854	           H323 Cleaner	RTP_UDP	Session 1, Shutting down read.
> >  12:22.854	           H323 Cleaner	RTP_UDP	Session 1, Shutting down write.
> >  12:22.854	           H323 Cleaner	RTP	Final statistics:
> >     packetsSent       = 582
> >     octetsSent        = 139680
> >     averageSendTime   = 30
> >     maximumSendTime   = 66
> >     minimumSendTime   = 0
> >     packetsReceived   = 8
> >     octetsReceived    = 3840
> >     packetsLost       = 1
> >     packetsTooLate    = 0
> >     packetsOutOfOrder = 0
> >     averageReceiveTime= 0
> >     maximumReceiveTime= 0
> >     minimumReceiveTime= 0
> >     jitter            = 15
> >  12:22.855	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Bandwidth request: -64.0kb/s, available: 10064.0kb/s
> >  12:22.855	           H323 Cleaner	H225	Sending release complete PDU: callRef=7029
> >  12:22.856	           H323 Cleaner	H225	Sending PDU:
> >   {
> >     q931pdu = {
> >       protocolDiscriminator = 8
> >       callReference = 7029
> >       from = destination
> >       messageType = ReleaseComplete
> > 
> >       IE: User-User = {
> >         25 c0 06 00 08 91 4a 00  04 58 08 11 00 c7 e3 64   %À....J..X...Çãd
> >         f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79 00  04 5a 96 8b cc 02 80 01   ñ.3Ö..y..Z..Ì...
> >         00                                                 .
> >       }
> >     }
> >     h225pdu = {
> >       h323_uu_pdu = {
> >         h323_message_body = releaseComplete {
> >           protocolIdentifier = 0.0.8.2250.0.4
> >           reason = undefinedReason <<null>>
> >           callIdentifier = {
> >             guid =  16 octets {
> >               c7 e3 64 f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79 00 04 5a 96 8b cc   Çãdñ 3Ö  y  Z  Ì
> >             }
> >           }
> >         }
> >         h245Tunneling = FALSE
> >       }
> >     }
> >   }
> >   08 02 9b 75 5a 7e 00 22  05 25 c0 06 00 08 91 4a   ...uZ~.".%À....J
> >   00 04 58 08 11 00 c7 e3  64 f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79   ..X...Çãdñ.3Ö..y
> >   00 04 5a 96 8b cc 02 80  01 00                     ..Z..Ì....
> >  12:22.860	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >  12:22.860	    H225 Answer:818b9a8	H225	Read error (4): Interrupted system call
> >  12:22.860	    H225 Answer:818b9a8	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >  12:22.860	    H225 Answer:818b9a8	H225	Signal channel closed.
> >  12:24.223	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::CleanUpOnTermination for H225 Answer:818b9a8
> >  12:24.223	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >  12:24.223	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::CleanUpOnTermination for H245:8187ad8
> >  12:24.223	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Connection ip$132.203.107.124:1454/7029 terminated.
> >  12:24.309	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: G.711-uLaw-64k{sw} <1>
> >  12:24.309	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: G.711-ALaw-64k{sw} <2>
> >  12:24.309	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: MS-GSM{sw} <3>
> >  12:24.309	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: LPC-10{sw} <4>
> >  12:24.309	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: GSM-06.10{sw} <5>
> >  12:24.309	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: H.261-QCIF <6>
> >  12:24.309	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: H.261-CIF <7>
> >  12:24.399	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Connection ip$132.203.107.124:1454/7029 deleted.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ---  no 245 tunnelling
> > 
> > I/O	301485790	480	480			1	0	48.411	0.006	48.490	0.060	0.079
> > Out	301485790		0		Empty		0			48.532	0.042	
> > I/O	301486750	960	960	PreBuf	Late	0	0	48.539	0.128	48.596	0.064	0.057
> > I/O	301487230	480	480			0	0	48.609	0.070	48.660	0.064	0.051
> > I/O	301487710	480	480			0	0	48.663	0.054	48.724	0.064	0.061
> > I/O	301488190	480	480			0	0	48.749	0.086	48.788	0.064	0.039
> > I/O	301488670	480	480			0	0	48.793	0.044	48.831	0.043	0.038
> > Out	301488670		0		Empty		0			48.900	0.069	
> > I/O	301489150	480	480	PreBuf	PreBuf	0	1	48.939	0.146	48.959	0.059	0.020
> > Out	301489150		0				1			49.023	0.064	
> > I/O	301490110	960	960	PreBuf	Late	1	1	49.019	0.080	49.087	0.064	0.068
> > I/O	301490590	480	480			1	1	49.037	0.018	49.130	0.043	0.093
> > I/O	301491070	480	480			1	1	49.101	0.064	49.194	0.064	0.093
> > I/O	301491550	480	480			1	1	49.132	0.031	49.258	0.064	0.126
> > I/O	301492030	480	480			1	0	49.204	0.072	49.322	0.064	0.118
> > I/O	301492990	960	960		Late	0	0	49.339	0.135	49.386	0.064	0.047
> > I/O	301493950	960	960		Late	0	0	49.437	0.098	49.450	0.064	0.013
> > Out	301493950		0		Empty		0			49.492	0.042	
> > I/O	301494430	480	480	PreBuf	PreBuf	0	1	49.506	0.069	49.556	0.064	0.050
> > Out	301494430		0		PreBuf		1			49.620	0.064	
> > Out	301494430		0				1			49.684	0.064	
> > I/O	301495390	960	960	PreBuf	Late	1	1	49.653	0.147	49.748	0.064	0.095
> > I/O	301495870	480	480			1	1	49.743	0.090	49.791	0.043	0.048
> > I/O	301496350	480	480			1	0	49.757	0.014	49.855	0.064	0.098
> > Out	301496350		0		Empty		0			49.919	0.064	
> > I/O	301497790	1440	1440	PreBuf	Late	0	0	49.936	0.179	49.983	0.064	0.047
> > I/O	301498270	480	480			0	0	50.002	0.066	50.047	0.064	0.045
> > In	301498750	480				0		50.087	0.085		
> > 	
> > 
> >  26:10.442	           H323 Cleaner	RTP_UDP	Session 1, Shutting down read.
> >  26:10.442	           H323 Cleaner	RTP_UDP	Session 1, Shutting down write.
> >  26:10.442	           H323 Cleaner	RTP	Final statistics:
> >     packetsSent       = 57
> >     octetsSent        = 13680
> >     averageSendTime   = 0
> >     maximumSendTime   = 0
> >     minimumSendTime   = 0
> >     packetsReceived   = 611
> >     octetsReceived    = 293280
> >     packetsLost       = 122
> >     packetsTooLate    = 0
> >     packetsOutOfOrder = 0
> >     averageReceiveTime= 62
> >     maximumReceiveTime= 160
> >     minimumReceiveTime= 6
> >     jitter            = 40
> >  26:10.442	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Bandwidth request: -64.0kb/s, available: 10064.0kb/s
> >  26:10.442	           H323 Cleaner	H225	Sending release complete PDU: callRef=7034
> >  26:10.443	           H323 Cleaner	H225	Sending PDU:
> >   {
> >     q931pdu = {
> >       protocolDiscriminator = 8
> >       callReference = 7034
> >       from = destination
> >       messageType = ReleaseComplete
> >       IE: User-User = {
> >         25 c0 06 00 08 91 4a 00  04 58 08 11 00 cd e3 64   %À....J..X...Íãd
> >         f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79 00  04 5a 96 8b cc 02 80 01   ñ.3Ö..y..Z..Ì...
> >         00                                                 .
> >       }
> >     }
> >     h225pdu = {
> >       h323_uu_pdu = {
> >         h323_message_body = releaseComplete {
> >           protocolIdentifier = 0.0.8.2250.0.4
> >           reason = undefinedReason <<null>>
> >           callIdentifier = {
> >             guid =  16 octets {
> >               cd e3 64 f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79 00 04 5a 96 8b cc   Íãdñ 3Ö  y  Z  Ì
> >             }
> >           }
> >         }
> >         h245Tunneling = FALSE
> >       }
> >     }
> >   }
> >   08 02 9b 7a 5a 7e 00 22  05 25 c0 06 00 08 91 4a   ...zZ~.".%À....J
> >   00 04 58 08 11 00 cd e3  64 f1 8b 33 d6 11 88 79   ..X...Íãdñ.3Ö..y
> >   00 04 5a 96 8b cc 02 80  01 00                     ..Z..Ì....
> >  26:10.445	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >  26:10.445	    H225 Answer:81b5240	H225	Read error (4): Interrupted system call
> >  26:10.445	    H225 Answer:81b5240	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >  26:10.445	    H225 Answer:81b5240	H225	Signal channel closed.
> >  26:12.081	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::CleanUpOnTermination for H225 Answer:81b5240
> >  26:12.082	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::Close
> >  26:12.082	           H323 Cleaner	H323	H323Transport::CleanUpOnTermination for H245:8189590
> >  26:12.082	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Connection ip$132.203.107.124:1462/7034 terminated.
> >  26:12.169	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: G.711-uLaw-64k{sw} <1>
> >  26:12.169	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: G.711-ALaw-64k{sw} <2>
> >  26:12.169	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: MS-GSM{sw} <3>
> >  26:12.169	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: LPC-10{sw} <4>
> >  26:12.169	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: GSM-06.10{sw} <5>
> >  26:12.169	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: H.261-QCIF <6>
> >  26:12.170	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Added capability: H.261-CIF <7>
> >  26:12.259	           H323 Cleaner	H323	Connection ip$132.203.107.124:1462/7034 deleted.
> > 
> 
> 
> 

-- 

  Ryan Leduc
  Assistant Professor                    Email: leduc McMaster ca
  Dept. of  Computing and Software       Tel: 905-525-9140 Ext. 27962
  Faculty of Engineering                 Fax: 905-524-0340
  McMaster University,                   Office: ITB/162
  Hamilton, Ontario  Canada L8S 4K1      http://www.cas.mcmaster.ca/~leduc

----  "Most of the time in our world, truth is just opinion." - M. Ondaatje 





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