Re: [GnomeMeeting-devel-list] Re: Remove GnomeMeeting from Gnome module list?

[danilo gnome org (Данило Шеган)]

Hey Toni,
other gm-devel-list readers,

First, since you're posting this to GnomeMeeting list, let me
apologize to all GnomeMeeting developers and users who were offended
by my request.  I'll try to explain myself below.

Данас у 21:59, Toni Moreno написа:

> Danilo, I am sure that as a little gnomemeeting-only tester (and not the
> most active one) my oppinions will not be as relevant as Damien's, but
> I think that I can point out some points of your way of doing that,
> again in my oppinion, are not the best.
>
> I obviously am not Damien, but I was offended with your e-mails.

You're not the only one of that opinion, so there's probably some (a
lot?) truth to your sentiment.  I apologize for being so direct, I'll
certainly try harder in being polite in the future.

> I consider that everyone that is involved on open source (not only gnome
> stuff) specially people like you and also Damien, who are not paid for
> being specially active on that world, has to keep fresh in their minds
> that there is a need to be specially polite and handsome with the
> others. If you consider that GM does not play the rules, do point it out
> the right way. Even if you were absolutelly right - i won't discuss that
> - the "obey or go away" way of living perhaps is not the most suitable.

Actually, I did this only when I realised that there was no chance of
it ever obeying the rules.  

I admit to being wrong in not informing Damien and other GM developers
first of what I'm going to propose.  I'm really sorry for that, and I
can't excuse myself.

> Please, I was very surprised as of reading that in your *first* email
> you started asking for removal of GM. As far as I know it would have
> been better if you would start saying "Damien, we should agree on
> release schedule because your schedule times are making some trouble for
> us and because all the rest does it , and so on".

Well, you have not been with me during the course of all the
GnomeMeeting releases.  I was very much excited to see it go in Gnome,
I pushed for it myself.  Alas, it never actually started following
Gnome schedule, which was a big dissapointment.

So, it might have been my "first" e-mail on the subject, but it
happened only after 3 Gnome releases, not immediately.  This shows
that I had patience, and I obviously didn't bother you too much
earlier on IRC (I was there and I complained in time of 2nd release,
but probably too politely ;), because Damien or you don't even
remember me :)

Perhaps I should have been less polite then, and more polite now :)

> If you want anithing to be done, please ask for it with respect.
>
> I have never seen such kind of weirdness, never, be sure on that list.

I really tried.  But please tell me how do I express that I feel
GnomeMeeting is not following the release schedule, and thus recommend
it's removal from module list, and yet show enough respect?  Was it
not enough what I did (I'll quote myself further below)?

It's simply impossible, because if you read my mail carefuly now,
you'll see that I'm just stating the obvious (it's different from
other Gnome modules), giving some credit to GnomeMeeting quality (I
don't want to make my e-mails too long, since there's a lot to say on
GM quality ;), and asking for it to be removed from modules list
because it's not in accordance with the schedule.  Now, with your
re-reading it, tell me what's so offensive about it?
 
GnomeMeeting team is obviously not familiar with me, but I'm involved
in Gnome for a couple of years already, and you might have noticed
that others in Gnome have not taken my mail so offensively: I always
try to be polite.  I'm not a regular troll or flamer in there (at
least I hope nobody considers me as such, though some may now start
:).  Nobody else except for GM team members complained of me being a
flamer or offensive: this at least means that I wasn't too offensive,
so I can probably be excused by you guys as well? ;)

> Please I kindly ask you that stop with this way of doing things, because
> all of us do not deserve that. We are working together to improve Gm and
> also Gnome, and I think that that showuld be the way, not yours, just
> presenting scenarios where there are no way out "Obey or go away".

You're now misrepresenting things.  I didn't ever say "obey or go
away".  I even suggested that not being Gnome module is not the end of
world, and that GM still is an excellent Gnome app, just that it
shouldn't be in the desktop (please, re-read my original message!).
FWIW, I use GnomeMeeting from time to time, yet I don't want it in the
desktop.  OTOH, I never used Evolution (which means there're mailers I
think better of), and I want it in the desktop.  I don't make my
decisions solely on my personal preferences (though, I'll consider
proposing Emacs+Gnus+w3m to replace Evolution, gedit, gnome-terminal, 
Epiphany,... :), but I consider other things as well. 

I was very polite in asking for 1.0.1 release of GnomeMeeting
just for the sake of Gnome earlier, even though many others were not
feeling it's ok to have 1.0 come out a month before the schedule.
Finally, three releases later when nothing has changed (and has become
even worse, with stable releases coming 3 months before schedule), I
ask for it to be removed from modules list.  Please, point out the
place which was so offending to you in my original email, and explain
why is it offending.  That will help me in being more careful in the
future as well :)

> This email was issued because your way of doing was getting on my
> nerves, I have tryed to be polite and excuse me if i was not enough.

You can never be polite enough when you're discussing a sensitive
topic.  I think I was pretty polite (I really tried) with my original
mail, but Damien was still offended.  Same is here, which should
explain my long attempt at clarifying it all ;)


For the end, let me quote myself from my initial mail:

> It's nicely integrated into Gnome, which makes it an excellent program
> to use on your Gnome desktop.  Still, I think it doesn't belong in
> official module list, since they're playing by their own rules.

[snip]

> ... because I think GnomeMeeting is a great piece of software.

The only "negative" thing I see in my mail about GM is that "they're
playing by their own rules".  That was reason to ask it's exclusion
from module list, and nothing else.  That was what I wanted to
discuss, but it all started off with "I'm offended" and "this is a
flame".

Anyone has a tip on how to post such an opinion and have it not be
marked as offensive or flame by anyone?  Don't tell me my way was
wrong, tell me what was the correct way! Is there any way where Damien
wouldn't be offended, if I first asked him about this, he told me what
I already knew, and then I posted such request to d-d-l?  He might
have been _less_ offended if I let him know beforehand (I admit again
that I should have done this at least), but he'd still be offended!

Should I just abstain from my opinion in such cases?  I don't think
so, we're bound to have controversies from time to time, and I hope
this one will work out fine.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me Tony!

Cheers,
Danilo