Re: On GNOME dependencies.

[Miguel de Icaza <miguel helixcode com>]

> I don't think you need to understand. It sounds likes you don't
> care what happens to gtk only apps. So why don't you merge gtk and
> gnome if they should never be separated? This statement worries
> me it reminds me of apple during their downward spiral in the 
> early nineties. Basically that we now better than the customers.

Just think of Gtk+ as the foundation for the widgets.  It is just a
component of the big picture, and although it is a very good thing on
its own, we want to provide the best possible user experience.  And
the best user experience is rather bound to many more things beyond
the toolkit you are using: XML, CORBA, Scripting, Gtk+, Libart, the
Canvas, unified configuration, skins/themes, inteoperability, reusable
components (like java beans, active-x controls), printing and so on.

> Its possible (although unlikely) that gtk will outlive gnome and then
> the html widget will be useless or need a lot of work. I made the example
> earlier about what if X11 had Motif dependencies. Motif is a niche and
> X is a cornerstone at this point.

I would like to point out that Gtk+ has been developed and maintained
largely in relation to being the GUI foundation for GNOME (it is not
the only reason, but it was a strong force behind its development).

My approach at thinking of GNOME has not been `What if we fail?', I do
not like to think in these terms, and I have put all my energy since
we began this project almost three years ago to make sure that it
would happen.  Up to the point of leaving my country and coming to
Boston to help ensure the future of GNOME. 

> Reuse is definitely best, however in order to be able to re-use just
> what you want having LOW dependencies is needed not more. This
> argument is the classic case someone wants to use code "A" but to
> do that he has to bring in code "B","C","D" etc and most
> coders I know will balk at this.

A smart coder will not care, as the dependencies on B, C and D are
really irrelevant if the added functionality is great. 

For instance, Gnumeric has always been used as a testbed for the
latest GNOME technologies.  Gnumeric was the first one to use the
canvas, it was the first to use Bonobo, the first to use libglade and
the first one to use gb.  And people do not complain on these
dependencies as this enable us to deliver a better product.  

> Miguel could you please explain why can't split the html
> widget into two parts as I suggested earlier? 

I am sorry, but I arrived later in the discussion and I do not know
what the proposed strategy is for this.  I talked about this shortly
today with Ettore at lunch.  I know that Radek has made GConf support
optional now, and we could work on making the printing dependency
optional.  Not really hard at all.

> Basically gtkhtml would be what Steven needs, I agree with him on
> this point. And the new GnomeHtml would inherit from gtkHtml and add
> everything like gconf print etc that the gnome folks want.

I think the lack of printing is one of the fundamental problems in
Gtk+, and encouranging non-printing widgets is a bad idea.  It really
makes the whole system look toyish.

Miguel.