Re: Why 'the logout problem' is a GNOME problem, not a WM problem

["Michael Rogers" <bastard_machine hotmail com>]

>I've harped on this before, but it seems to need repeating. If 
>GNOME's design allows GNOME to become accidentally bereft of a 
>window manager because a user does something natural, such as click 
>on "Logout" on the root menu and expect to be logged out, then 
>GNOME's design is at fault.

There are legitimate reasons for shutting down your wm but leaving 
Gnome running. Perhaps Enlightenment's "Logout" feature should be 
renamed "Exit Enlightenment" to avoid confusion, but that's a 
question for E's developers, not Gnome's.

>It has been said that the reason GNOME allows this to happen is that
>the window manager should exit via the session manager, not by simply
>terminating. This sounds reasonable, except for one thing. Simply
>terminating rather than using the session manager is typical behavior
>for window managers.

The earlier reply to this question may have been ambiguous - there is 
a difference between asking Gnome to shut down, and exiting your 
window manager. Gnome should not exit if the window manager exits, 
because the user may want to continue with another window manager. 
However, window managers can end the Gnome session if this is the 
user's intention, by calling "save-session --kill".

>Why should GNOME be designed to expect the window manager to behave 
>in a non-typical fashion?

Because it makes sense for Gnome and the wm to work together, each 
handling appropriate tasks. Gnome provides some services 
traditionally provided by the window manager (such as root menus, 
pagers, and window lists). There is a specification on the Gnome 
website which suggests how a window manager should behave to make the 
most out of Gnome. Gnome will happily work with non-compliant window 
managers, but you may get some duplication of features.

>That the window manager exits by simply terminating should have been 
>accepted as an engineering constraint to be worked with.

It is accepted. If you want to log out of Gnome, use the Gnome "Log 
Out" option. If you want to log out of Enlightenment, use the 
Enlightenment "Log Out" option. If you want Enlightenment to log you 
out of Gnome, get it to call "save-session --kill".

>The current behavior of GNOME is not appropriate, especially for
>something that calls itself "1.0". Some suggestions:
>
>1) If the GNOME developers really think that the window manager is 
>the problem, then perhaps they should provide code that points to a
>solution, such as maybe patches for some common window managers.

>I don't expect the GNOME developers to become window manager
>distributors, but if they can jumpstart the developers of the window
>managers to 'do it right', maybe they can solve the problem for good
>and benefit everybody.

The window manager compliance spec on the Gnome website seems to be 
the document you're looking for. It includes appropriate code 
examples.

>(I am presuming that GNOME expects the window
>manager to work with xsm, X's session manager, not gnome-session. If
>GNOME does expect the window manager to work directly with
>gnome-session, then it is being awfully presumptive indeed.)

The authors of window managers can make that choice. Gnome supports 
window managers which are not session managed, and I assume you can 
use xsm alongside the Gnome session manager if you want to. 
Personally I think it makes sense for the wm's session to be stored 
in the same place as all the other Gnome apps' sessions.

>2) Find a way to deal with window managers as they are. This may mean
>having to give up some functionality, and possibly replacing that
>functionality with something else that accomplishes the same 
>objective.
>Tough.

Gnome does work with window managers "as they are" (ie not Gnome 
compliant), and yes, you have to give up some functionality (eg 
proxying root window clicks).

>I can put up with bugs in GNOME because I know the developers don't
>like them any more than I do. I find it pretty disappointing, 
>however, to find that the response to a nasty flaw in GNOME is 
>passing the buck rather than trying to find a solution.

The Gnome developers have made a decision to allow the user to choose 
a window manager rather than specifying one. I don't think this 
constitutes "passing the buck" in any sense - you have a choice of 
window managers, and if you choose one which doesn't offer a specific 
feature it is not Gnome's fault. Your complaint stems from the fact 
that Enlightenment, a Gnome compliant window manager which was 
written by the same person who wrote the Gnome window manager spec, 
doesn't have a "Log out from Gnome session" feature on its root menu. 
Perhaps you should mention this to Rasterman. It is not a problem 
with Gnome.


 - Michael Rogers

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