Re: Menu guidelines updated

[Reinout van Schouwen <reinout cs vu nl>]

Hello Adam,

Adam Elman wrote:

> > As I see it, a program that runs in GNOME doesn't *have* to have a menu
> > bar at all, when the functionality the program provides doesn't require
> > it. You still have the close button in the title bar which even newbie
> > users can find easily.
>
> Ooh, I _hate_ phrases like "which even newbie users can find easily" 
> which don't have accompanying data.  :)  In fact, I imagine with the 


This is taken from personal experience; each year I see firstyear 
students using CDE for the first time. When they want to close a window, 
they'll first click the top right button (which is Maximize in CDE). 
Realizing that it doesn't do what they intended, they click the Minimize 
button next to it. Since the window has now disappeared they do not 
realize the program is still running, even though the iconified window 
is still present on the desktop. This results in people having their 
desktops completely cluttered with iconified terminal windows etc. :)

> fact that you can switch the "close" button around in both position and 
> appearance by switching Sawfish themes (not to mention WMs!), this is 
> not in itself an appropriate solution in most cases.


In the discussion about instant-apply dialogs you say:

>--begin quote--<
I've gone back and forth on this a couple of times, but I think this is 
correct for object property dialogs.

Basically, you don't need "Cancel" or "OK" or anything like that, since 
the dialog is instant-apply.  If it applies to a document, you don't 
need an "Undo" button either since that functionality should already be 
available from the document.  So the only button you might need is 
"Close".  And that's redundant with the close button that the WM 
provides (or at least should provide).
>--end quote--<

So am I right in concluding that you changed your opinion on this subject?

> That said, I would agree that menu bars are not always appropriate and 
> that if you have a simple app with a single window, a "Close" button on 
> the window (as well as the standard close control in the title bar) is 
> plenty. 


I'm curious what you think about apps like Gkrellm and XMMS. The latter 
draws its own mini-titlebar, the former doesn't even have that but its 
functions can only be accessed through a context menu. This may seem bad 
UI design, but those two apps are a typical example of programs that 
someone would want to run in a corner of his screen, occupying minimal 
desktop space. A titlebar, menu or close button would take an 
unacceptable(?) amount of extra space. Seen from this perspective, the 
lack of obvious ways to manipulate the program actually adds to its 
functionality! Or do you disagree?

[multiple windows, same document]

> difficult to discover.  And if a newbie happens to be using somebody 
> else's computer, the behavior for the _same command_ could be inconsistent.


ok, I'm convinced about that.


--

Reinout van Schouwen
e-mail    : reinout cs vu nl
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