Re: Is Flaming Good?

[Frederick I Gleef <gleef capital net>]

On Wed, 19 Aug 1998, Dan "Effugas" Kaminsky wrote:
> Tom Vogt wrote:
> Subject: Re: Apologies to gnome-gui if I ever said you guys were flamers...
> 
> >Dan Effugas Kaminsky <effugas@best.com> wrote:
> >> I do NOT mind coders saying "by the way, this is kinda hard because of X,
> >> Y, and Z."  I DO mind "dan kaminsky is an idiot/dumbass out to kill
> >> gnome".  That was the general reaction I got in the Gnome developer
> >> IRC channel, by the way.

First question, what GNOME Developer IRC channel?  I was unaware of one,
and there is no mention of it on the website.

Second question, why are you assuming that people on such a chanel are
coders?  IRC is an open protocol that anyone can use, regardless of
compitence or appropriateness.  It is certainly not a common place for
coders to hang out.  Even if you saw names you thought you recognized,
with IRC there is no guarantee that the person is who they claim they are.


> >well dan - you've got a problem here. and it won't go away by labeling the
> >gnome-developers flaming bastards.
> >
> >see, these are the guys who will have to write the code for your ideas. as
> >long as they take that view on you, it simply won't happen and you can just
> >as well close shop and go home.
> >
> >what can you do? the social solution: work on your pr department to create
> >a better impression of yourself. or the technical solution: learn to 
> >write gnome lib stuff and prove them wrong by implementing things
> >yourself.
> 
> 
> Well, I have a choice, Tom.
> 
> I can either accept that this is how GNOME is going to treat ANYBODY who
> tries to make a proposal, 

What is "this"?  You should certainly not label how Slashdot posters or
people on an IRC channel treate your prosals as how GNOME treats
proposals.  This list (and the others) are how GNOME treats proposals.

>From what I have seen on this list, I have seen a few comments of
dismissal, several of active interest, and a whole pile of comments
about your attitude.  If I were in your shoes, I would take this as a sign
that you have some good ideas, but you might want to work on how you come
across to others.


> or I can stand up and say, *NO*, I don't care if you're god and you
> coded the universe, you don't have the right in an "open" coding
> environment to, without even glancing at the proposal, dismiss out of 
> hand its contents because it doesn't contain speech in the language you
> want to read it in!  (Take that, Judge Gwin.)  I'm not fighting the
> fight for myself.  I'm fighting it for the future of free software:  An
> industry known not for saying no but for saying "fuck off you suit you
> don't have a clue" is NOT going to earn much corporate respect.

If you send in proposals in Ukranian, I'm going to ignore them, since
converting the proposal from prose in a language I don't speak into code
is way way too much work.  Sending in proposals in English is better, but
be aware that people have limited time, and converting other peoples ideas
into code is often far lower on their list than converting their own
ideas.  

If you want those proposals to become part of GNOME you need to first do
one of two things:
  A) Submit them in code that compiles with GNOME, or 
  B) Convince people that your ideas are not just good, but important and
     worthy of time to code.  You don't have to convince everyone, just 
     enough people for code to actually appear.
You then must convince people that this code is worthy of inclusion into
GNOME (actually, parts of Cluehunting look more on the glib/gtk+ level
than the GNOME level, so that's an additional set of developers you have
to persuade).

For both B and the final acceptance, you need to persuade people, not
flame them.  Also, if someone flames you, flaming back does not improve
people's opinion of you.  If you wish to discuss more things you do that
may turn off developers to your ideas, let me know and we can talk in
private email.


> (Take that, Judge Gwin.)  I'm not fighting the fight for myself.  I'm
> fighting it for the future of free software:  An industry known not for
> saying no but for saying "fuck off you suit you don't have a clue" is
> NOT going to earn much corporate respect. 

(Who is Judge Gwin?)

When a bunch of people are given free reign to speak their minds, some of
the thoughts they express can be pretty ugly.  This has always been the
case.  In response, one can either suppress speech or learn to deal with
it.  Personally, I've always been on the side of dealing with it.

Such inflamatory speech is even more common on the Internet, where people
are more free to speak with little repercussion for what they say.  It's
not going to go away because you take up the fight against flaming.

Look to your self, and your personal interactions.  Look through your sent
mail folder, and see what you have done to flame others, and to encourage
flames directed at you.  The way I see it, you don't have much grounds on
which to rail against the cruelty of the world, and go on a crusade
against flames.


-Gleef