Re: PROPOSAL: UISG Menu Line Standardization

[George <jirka 5z com>]

On Tue, Aug 11, 1998 at 02:05:09AM -0700, JR Tipton wrote:
> > > If I want to know how to fix a part on my car, I look it up; I don't try
> > > everything possible until something *seems* like it works... which is
> > > exactly what stereotypical Unix weenies have done forever.
> > 
> > yes ... so ... if I want some info on how to do something ... I'll look it
> > up ... man -k ... whatever ... I search the web ... if I can't find anything
> > on it .. I will still try ... if I feel like this should be better
> > documented I write the doc and send it to the author ... 
> 
> You *look for documentation* first!  What if there were no man pages
> because everyone thought, "gee if you want man pages then write 'em on yer
> own pal"?  You'd be screwed, that's what.

actually gues what ... a lot of them did say JUST THAT .. and guess what ...
there is plenty of documentation for their software ...

> If the docs aren't there?  The answer, to you, is obvious: force the
> user to figure it out on his/her own.  If that makes sense to you, I think
> something is fundamentally wrong with the way you view software.

not force every user ... but the first person that gets fed up with not
having docs will write them ... there there are docs ...

> > > wouldn't purchase another thing from them.  If GNOME applications come
> > > deliviered with a note that says, "figure it out," I'll be the first (of 
> > > thousands) to choose the commercial world.
> > 
> > no ... BUT .. you don't seem to understand ... the docs only have to be
> > written once ... then they are there aren't they?
> 
> Yep.  Exactly.  The developers should write the docs and that'd be the end
> of it.

I don't see why really ... docs are written by whoever wants to writed
docs ... rarely is the app so complicated that only the author can write
any docs for it

> I understand that documentation, when written, does not disappear.  We
> agree on this point at least.

ok ... so go write a few docs ... if you feel they are so important ...
that's what people do in the free software world ... if something needs to
be done they do it ... but only if they feel like it ... that's the whole
point of it .... it works rather well actually ... people do a far better
job when they want to do something as oposed to being forced into doing
something ...

> > > Write the documentation.  The users will love you for it.
> > yup .. they just might ... do I care ... maybe ... does this force me to
> > write anything .. no ... will I write docs ... I just might ...
> 
> If you don't care what the user's experience is, I'm not sure why you're
> on this mailing list.  Can you give me some insight as to what your
> position is on the user's experience?  Why even have a GUI?  Screw the
> user, right?  Let him make his own GUI while he's writing his own docs.
> Hell, let him build his own computer out of gum wrappers: it's not
> anyone's job to do anything because doing stuff sucks!

you do not seem to understand this ... I'm on this list as I'm the maintainer
of the panel and wrote a few other insignificant gnome apps ... 

GUI I write because I want there to be an easy way for people to use linux
... plus I enjoy writing gnome apps ... if I didn't I wouldn't be doing this
in the first place ...

your ideas are the primary misconception most people have when coming from
a commercial world into free software world ...

in this world we are ALL users ... if we want tog et something done a couple
of the users get together and write some code or documentation ... so there
is no company->user relationship ... yes I'm a user ... I'm no producer
of software ... I code a few things because I enjoy doing it ... I might
not enjoy doing docs all that much (though I do plan to write a little
bit of documentation for some of the projects) ... there another user to
write those then ...

you  seem to be talking to me as if I were the software house .. and you
are the user ... no ... we are both users ... if no users did figure
anything out or didn't code their own little proggie ... there would be
no linux ...

> > what I'm saying is that .. I might not write docs .. I might write a few
> > crappy lines about the program ... 
> > 
> > but I'm pretty sure there are people around that WANT docs for gnome ...
> > and they will write those docs ...
> 
> No!  You've got it all wrong!  The people who *want* the docs are the
> people who *can't* write the docs!  It's very simple, really:
> 
> a) Developers know the program well.
> b) New users do not.
> c) Users will want documentation.
> d) Following c, documentation must be written.
> e) Following a and b, developers would be the best to do it.
> 
> See?  Simple.

you  still seem to suffer this problem that new users will not have docs
... I'm saying they will ... trust me there are enough people familiar with
the programs enough .. who will write docs ... for those new users ...

again ... we are all users ... everything is voluntary ... I can write all
the software I want and not document it ...if I don't feel like it ...
if you think it should be documented ... do figure it out and docuemnt it
... if you feel it should have such and such feature .. send me a patch ...

new users will thank you for it

> > whining about no docs or ANY OTHER aspect of free software just makes you
> > look dumb ... you didn't buy this software ... nobody is "responsible" for
> 
> Wrong.  The application developers are responsible for every aspect of the
> code, plain and simple.  If their software has no documentation, then it
> suffers and it is the fault of the developers.

no I'm not ... I wrote it on my free time ... the fact that I released it
for use onto the masses is just my good will ... if they want docs .. some
of them will have to write em ..

unless of colurse I write em first (I never said I wouldn't, but I just
might not) ...

nothing is the "fault" of anybody ... it's NOT like in the commercial world
where there is a company .. and the company makes a product .. well then
the programmer is responsible for it I guess ... in the free software world
.. there is no product ... there is some code that was written by somebody
... if others want to use it they can ... nobody's forcing them to ... if
they feel it should have docs ... one of the users will write docs ...
nobody is "responsible" for anything ...

> Who is whining, anyway?  I'm not whining, I'm telling you like it is.  If
> you don't know enough about software development to have a decent
> understanding of how crucial documentation is to the whole process is...
> well, then, that's a different story.

you must have taken one of those software engeneering classes in college ...

hmmm ... again ... this is not a product ... this is something I do for fun
... if I feel like making it really complicated ... I can ... if I feel like
not putting any docs in it ... I can ... 

> Ah yes.  More of this "free software defies the laws of nature" stuff. You
> start with saying that free software doesn't need documentation because
> it's free.  Next you'll tell me that free software code doesn't need
> comments just because it's free.  Then you'll say that it doesn't *really*
> need to compile because hey!, it's free.  Then you'll tack on: just think
> it up and tell everyone about it because hey!, ideas are free.

ummm .... nobody said free software doesn't need documentation to be widely
used ... you don't seem to be reading what I'm writing ... it's just that
this is a community effort ... whoever feels the most "up to it" will write
the docs ... there is no distinction between the "development team" and the
"users" ... they are ALL "users" ... they can all chip in to improve the
project ... but nobody HAS to do anything ...  I can really do whatever I
want ... and you can do whatever you want ... nobody will get fired if he
doesn't do what you think is important .. he might think it's important too,
but he just doesn't feel like doing it ... life goes on .. and if it's needed
.. someone WILL do it ... so don't worry by the time gnome 1.0 comes out ...
there will be documenation ... but only if people don't just say: "it's HIS
responsibility ... not mine" ... it's nobody's responsibility but those people
that feel strongly about it .. should do something instead of telling
others what to do ...

> Documentation is a requirement for World Domination.  If GNOME wants to
> thrust its way onto desktops, documentation is a part of that.  Take it or
> leave it.

yup ... so go document a few apps ... in the meantime ... I'll be coding
..

George

-- 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
George Lebl <jirka@5z.com> http://www.5z.com/jirka/
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