Re: Huge Batch Reply: Lars

["Dan \"Effugas\" Kaminsky" <effugas best com>]

-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Vogt <tom@lemuria.org>
To: gnome-gui-list@gnome.org <gnome-gui-list@gnome.org>
Date: Wednesday, August 05, 1998 3:04 PM
Subject: Re: Huge Batch Reply: Lars


>Dan Effugas Kaminsky <effugas@best.com> wrote:
>> The menuprint is owned by the *system*, not
>> by the application.  In Windows right now when a program crashes I need
to
>> press control-alt-delete and try to find that program's entry, and kill
>> that.  It'd be much nicer to have a button that works when even the app
>> doesn't and be able to force quit.
>
>we already have that.  it's called  window manager.


The big war I've known is gonna happen is that GNOME, in its final form,
will need to include a WM.  It'll need to allow other WM's to take
functionality, but, when you get down to it, it'll need a WM.

>> By the same token, it's no longer a question that Exit has file contexts.
>
>pardon? because you keep on insisting it's suddenly right?


What part of "Exit = Savecheck then Processkill" has file contexts?
(Actually, do you disagree that exit is different than kill process?)

>> We've established that users expect their unfinished work to be saved, or
at
>> least checked if they should be saved, when Exit is triggered.  The
behavior
>> of Force Quit?  Trigger Exit, and if the process isn't gone in a 10
seconds,
>> raise a window saying "kill application?"
>
>very interesting. ideas suddenly stop  floating around and are hard facts
>without human interaction. would this be a circus, it'd  be most
interesting
>to watch. sadly, it isn't.


Well, I haven't found somebody here yet who says "Yes, when I hit exit, I
want it to trash my work".  In fact I got mocked pretty loudly when I
suggested ANYBODY thought that, and sun very quickly said no no no I thought
that kill meant something else.

Tom, do *YOU* think exit should equal kill process even if that means
trashing the users' work?  Because I guarantee you, users don't agree.

>> When a non-geek like my GF(how'd that happen?) SPAZZES OUT OVER A GEEK
>> ISSUE, that means something.
>
>I wrote a long mail to tell you what it means.


Still waiting for that email.

>
>> It means that, unlike the rest of the
>> interface, average joe users happen to find the File menu VERY VERY
USABLE.
>
>you're guessing.
>thought you were in search of logic?


OK, would you accept that users remembering file menu stuff more than
anything else = guessing? Because I've been testing this...my predictions
are still holding out.

>
>> It *works*, it's *ALWAYS* there, it's comforting, and it maps to a "brain
>> image" of how programs work.
>
>you're guessing again. and about brain image - nah. couldn't be further
away
>from that. working on something in that area right now,  that's why I think
>I can say that.


OK, well I can't respond to something you don't post.

>
>> Off the top of your head, right now, how do you print?  File::Print.  Off
>> the top of your head, right now, how do you save?  File::Save.  Off the
top
>> of your head, how do you Exit?
>
>off the top of your head, what does this prove? that we're used to certain
>layouts.
>
>in the uk they drive on the other side of the road. guess your girlfriend
>would be pissed if you told her some people want to move the steering wheel
>to the other side of the car.


Actually, yeah.  If somebody down the street from her decided to drive on
the wrong side of the street, she might die ;-)  That'd DEFINITELY make her
scream.

The quit/noquit thing is lame.  I'm over it, you'll lose as soon as an app
tries to follow the style guide.  And, if it doesn't lose, heh, no big
whoop, I was wrong.  Can we GC3 the Exit entry being missing?  Or at least
GC2?  I don't think it should be a BUG to have an Exit entry.

File/Document has a chance of severely polluting the interface though.  I
phear that.

I'm mentioning that I want to have a public IRC conference with you and any
other list members once again.  If you're gonna change something this major,
guess what, we need to see what the users think.  Since you're right, they
won't mind.