Re: [Fwd: Re: [Fwd: Communication]]

[Pat Costello <Patrick Costello Sun COM>]

Hi Chris, 

Thanks for your mail. Why didn't you announce that you were going to do a 
putback which was inter-related with the User Guide. Communication is for 
everyone, not just for the Sun team. 

The point that I'm making is that apart from the Doctable, no-one seems to be 
very sharp in making announcements about updates. Not just the Sun team. Let's 
see a new approach of open communication from everybody. 

Pat


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> I wanted to reply to this thread, as I too have seen both the wonderful
> contributions from Sun, as when they updated the Users Guide after I did
> it for 1.4, and also a disappointing lack of communication, as when a
> few weeks ago changes were committed to the Users guide module that
> prevented me from releasing it with some newly written documentation. I
> think that this new approach by the Sun team would be one I would favor
> as I for one appreciate being given an opportunity to voice my opinion
> in things, even if its only to say, 'thats great, go for it!'
> It may be worthwhile to also say here, that often I have seen in
> communications over the net, be it on irc, email, newsgroups, etc, that
> people can build up a head of steam over the most innocuous of things.
> Please try to remember that an email that seems to be attacking you
> could in another light just be a suggestion and step back for a while to
> consider the true intent of it.
> 
> Chris
> 
> On Tue, 2002-09-03 at 02:29, Pat Costello wrote:
> > Hi John, 
> > 
> > Thanks for your diplomatic reply to Eric's postings. 
> > 
> > >From the start of our involvement with the GNOME project, the Sun 
documentation 
> > team knew that we were in a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't situation. 
In 
> > other words: 
> > 
> > If we pursued a high-profile approach, copying the mailing list with each 
> > action, question, and suggestion then we might be accused of taking over, 
> > bulldozing, or stepping on toes.
> > 
> > If we pursued a low-profile approach, discussing topics with directly 
involved 
> > individuals, then we might be accused of being very closed, or having a 
> > communication problem. 
> > 
> > Until people got used to the presence of the Sun documentation team, we 
thought 
> > that the best course of action would be the low-profile approach. In the 
event, 
> > we stand accused of the consequences of both courses of action. Somewhat 
galling 
> > considering the efforts we have made to be sensitive to other contributors. 
> > 
> > Therefore, I conclude that we should switch to the high-profile approach. At 
> > least then we can only be accused of the one set of misdemeanors. 
> > 
> > I disagree with Eric on quite a few points of detail, however I don't think 
it 
> > is worth getting into a "I think this" "you said that" discussion of Eric's 
> > specific points. Unless, of course, Eric wants to pursue specific points 
> > publicly. In which case I suggests he takes those points individually to the 
> > mailing list. 
> > 
> > Pat
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > John Fleck wrote: 
> > > 
> > > Let me suggest that, to the extent there is a communication problem
> > > here, more than a bit of the fault is my own. One of my roles was
> > > supposed to be as a liason between the GDP and the Sun Docs team, and I
> > > have clearly let both sides down here. Sorry.
> > > 
> > > Both Pat and Eric have said things with which I agree.
> > > 
> > > The Sun team's style of communication and that of the GDP are quite
> > > different. The GDP's traditional mode of communication invokes the
> > > mailing lists and IRC, both very public settings. My experience with you
> > > Sun team members has been that you tend to prefer private emails. I have
> > > tried to traverse this terrain carefully, respecting your style of
> > > communication by responding in private, asking permission if I felt it
> > > was necessary to elevate something to a discussion on the public list. I
> > > would frankly have preferred if y'all had jumped into the public fray
> > > more, on IRC and gnome-doc-list, but I have tried to respect your style
> > > of communication and work with it. In this regard, I think Eric's point
> > > is well taken - you have not been especially active in this part of our
> > > community life, where much of the planning of our big-picture ideas and
> > > goals goes on.
> > > 
> > > That said, however, in those private emails, in the blow-by-blow of
> > > working out who's doing what doc, and what their status is, I think the
> > > Sun team has been effective in communicating directly with the
> > > individuals involved. I can't speak for others here, but that certainly
> > > has been the case for gnome-utils, the users guide and the other bits of
> > > miscellany that we've been dealing with. The failing here was mine in
> > > not finding ways to elevate things to the public fora so others would
> > > know what was going on.
> > > 
> > > I think Eric's contention that the Sun team has run roughshod over
> > > individual documenters is unfair. It's tricky terrain to negotiate, but
> > > I know of no case where the Sun docs team insisted on having us use
> > > their doc over the objection of a doc's original author/maintainer. In
> > > this regard, my experience strongly supports Pat's contention that the
> > > Sun team has tried hard to do the right thing. (I can't speak to the
> > > gedit situation.)
> > > 
> > > So how do we ensure that we communicate better, so we give users what
> > > they deserve, which is the best-documented desktop there is?
> > > 
> > > Cheers,
> > > John
> > > 
> > > -- 
> > > John Fleck
> > > jfleck inkstain net (h) jfleck abqjournal com (w)
> > > http://www.inkstain.net http://www.abqjournal.com
> > > 
> > > "Sometimes, a diner is all about the mac and cheese." 
> > >   - Zippy the Pinhead
> > > 
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