Re: [Gimp-web] [Gimp-developer] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[C R <cajhne gmail com>]

And again, nothing is learned. More name calling, and it's everyone else
that's the problem.

If anyone else wondering why the sarcasm all the time, look in the mirror.
lol


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:25 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com> wrote:

> Fair enough. I guess people (total of 3 different people) that PMed me are
> dicks, too.
>
> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:59 C R <cajhne gmail com> wrote:
>
> > > Everything started because I was called a "backseat viewer", and
> > > therefore not allowed to say that scheduled releases are good. After that I
> > > was replying to that attitude, and not about whether rolling releases are
> > > better (which I had an extremely open mind about).
> >
> > You said all sorts of things, made all sorts of assumptions. He's not
> > wrong about that. You were complaining about things that are factually
> > wrong, then when told you were wrong about those things, you got upset...
> > like way upset. :)
> >
> >
> > > The message you quoted is way after things started going bad.
> >
> > That bit seemed pretty civil up until that statement. Redit makes it hard
> > to tell, I just followed the first path I found. If you came back later to
> > continue the rant at that point it all says "5 days ago". But whatever.
> >
> >
> > > As for your comparison with Starbucks, I don't abuse Starbucks employees
> > > and neither I abuse GIMP's staff.
> >
> > You're not complaining about your coffee, you're complaining on what day
> > the coffee is getting better, and implying that GIMP doesn't listen to
> > their users (to which Alex rightly pointed out that all the 2.10 stuff
> > users asked for was done).
> >
> > Making negative assumptions about GIMP developers is abusive, especially
> > in a community you don't know anything about. GIMP is community maintained
> > software, and Alex has been a part of that community for ages. So yes, you
> > will find that he knows much more than you do about the inner workings of
> > GIMP. He's on #gimp all the time and is helpful in lots of ways as an
> > active part of the community. You'd do well to listen, take the criticism,
> > and work on your own communication skills before jumping in and demanding
> > that no one hurt your feelers, because I don't see you trying very hard to
> > control your own temper in these threads.
> >
> >
> >
> > > I also don't care about harsh words, I'm not a little snowflake.
> >
> > You should. It's community software. Leveling abuse at volunteers trying
> > to make better software for you for free is kind of a dick move.
> >
> >
> > > I just want to know if GIMP is represented by Alexandre like he implies,
> > > and if the GIMP team is OK with attacking newbies and critics of GIMP
> > > saying they're backseat drivers that are not worth listening to and not
> > > worth explaining things.
> >
> > You were not attacked. You were corrected. Show us how much you're not a
> > snowflake and be a bit civil yourself.
> >
> >
> > > I'm not the only one who shares the view that in GIMP there is this
> > > attitude of "if you didn't make it, you're not allowed to talk bad about
> > > it".
> >
> > Nowhere did anyone keep you from talking about it. Not on Reddit, and not
> > on this mailing list.
> >
> > If that's the culture at GIMP, I'm not gonna cry. Just say it.
> > >
> >
> > Be nice, and you can expect the same in most circumstances. That's not
> > just GIMP culture, that's life in general.
> >
> > -C
> >
> >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 16:00 C R <cajhne gmail com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From a third party perspective, this is where things kicked off in the
> > > > thread:
> > > >
> > > > "I didn't say you didn't include any features users ask for, I was
> > > > just justifying me complaining.
> > > >
> > > > Why do you guys have to get so pissy so quickly, is it GIMP's code that
> > > > makes you that, or you have to pass a "constantly-pissed-off" exam to
> > > > become a GIMP dev?
> > > > Jesus..."
> > > >
> > > > What baffles me is why people start ranting on forums, making all sorts
> > > > of wrong assumptions about GIMP dev motivations, and then expect everyone
> > > > involved to stumble over themselves trying to please them.
> > > >
> > > > This is not Starbucks - Abuse of staff will not go unchallenged. :)
> > > >
> > > > Frankly, I'm astounded at Alexandre's restraint.
> > > >
> > > > Just an outsider's perspective.
> > > > -C
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 2:01 PM Alexandre Prokoudine via
> > > > gimp-developer-list <gimp-developer-list gnome org> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't
> > > > > know if
> > > > > > people can read it.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
> > > > > > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
> > > > > > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
> > > > > > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
> > > > > > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
> > > > >
> > > > > I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately --
> > > > > you
> > > > > have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they
> > > > > call me
> > > > > a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
> > > > >
> > > > > If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will
> > > > > help
> > > > > your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
> > > > > > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that
> > > > > they
> > > > > > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your
> > > > > behavior is
> > > > > > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If
> > > > > it's not,
> > > > > > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be
> > > > > as much
> > > > > > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree
> > > > > with
> > > > > > you.
> > > > >
> > > > > I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
> > > > > for,
> > > > > is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
> > > > >
> > > > > https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
> > > > >
> > > > > "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid
> > > > > repetitive
> > > > > arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
> > > > >
> > > > > Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
> > > > >
> > > > > Good day to you.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alex
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> > > > > > alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > > > OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
> > > > > > > > misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone
> > > > > who
> > > > > > > > doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with
> > > > > you. I
> > > > > > > > guess it's you against the world.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and
> > > > > --in
> > > > > > > > case they have the courage to approve my message or at least
> > > > > reply--if they
> > > > > > > > approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your
> > > > > behavior
> > > > > > > > is OK?).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
> > > > > lists
> > > > > > > you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people
> > > > > get
> > > > > > > emails sent to those list.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me
> > > > > don't as
> > > > > > > > much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
> > > > > other
> > > > > > > problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
> > > > > pinpoint
> > > > > > > the relevant threads.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Exhibit A:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg
> > > > > guy
> > > > > > > came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just
> > > > > wanted to
> > > > > > > tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact
> > > > > same
> > > > > > > ground with him just a few days earlier.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is this very thread:
> > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
> > > > > > > There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to
> > > > > use in
> > > > > > > GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to
> > > > > say that
> > > > > > > lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
> > > > > "mindset
> > > > > > > of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing
> > > > > I said
> > > > > > > in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
> > > > > "Facts...
> > > > > > > Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > ropes.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And Exhibit B:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
> > > > > thread
> > > > > > > entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
> > > > > > > dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
> > > > > something.
> > > > > > > Even if you win, you lose...
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > This is this very thread:
> > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
> > > > > > > Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend
> > > > > shocking 3
> > > > > > > minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords,
> > > > > mansplaining, and
> > > > > > > patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person
> > > > > characterized the
> > > > > > > official 2.10.8 announcement.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > very same thread --
> > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
> > > > > > > -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes
> > > > > between
> > > > > > > versions.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of
> > > > > tagging a
> > > > > > > release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for
> > > > > the next
> > > > > > > version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
> > > > > attack,
> > > > >
> > > > > > save for our friend /u/Unchayned <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > > > here."
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think
> > > > > our
> > > > > > > interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven
> > > > > wrong.
> > > > > > > Alex
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility
> > > > > for your
> > > > > > > > actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for
> > > > > yourself only,
> > > > > > > > but for other people as well.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> > > > > > > > alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hi Niccolo,
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a
> > > > > have a
> > > > > > > > > conversation with people who come with preconceptions about
> > > > > something they
> > > > > > > > > are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn
> > > > > before
> > > > > > > > > drawing conclusions.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to
> > > > > releases
> > > > > > > > > we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I
> > > > > should have
> > > > > > > > > kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos
> > > > > verbal
> > > > > > > > > abuse containing expletives.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Alexandre
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Hello.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > TLDR:
> > > > > > > > > > Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that
> > > > > he's
> > > > > > > > > > a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and
> > > > > doing things
> > > > > > > > > > that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?)
> > > > > role, which
> > > > > > > > > > makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > FULL:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry):
> > > > > I've
> > > > > > > > > > had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest
> > > > > exchange is
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
> > > > > > > > > > from the Reddit thread at
> > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
> > > > > > > > > > While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty.
> > > > > What triggered
> > > > > > > > > > Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than
> > > > > random
> > > > > > > > > > ones, because people like IT administrators might have to
> > > > > upgrade hundreds
> > > > > > > > > > of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
> > > > > > > > > > understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should
> > > > > refactor
> > > > > > > > > > GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said).
> > > > > Regardless,
> > > > > > > > > > instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release
> > > > > because, bla
> > > > > > > > > > bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying
> > > > > that I had
> > > > > > > > > > no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but
> > > > > neither is he
> > > > > > > > > > more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something:
> > > > > just because
> > > > > > > > > > of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil,
> > > > > which is
> > > > > > > > > > what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas
> > > > > with people
> > > > > > > > > > that have unapproved opinions.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
> > > > > > > > > > perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to
> > > > > be honest
> > > > > > > > > > sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I
> > > > > didn't say
> > > > > > > > > > nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally
> > > > > different
> > > > > > > > > > beast.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
> > > > > started
> > > > > > > > > > getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
> > > > > attacked around
> > > > > > > > > > Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > > > > A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that
> > > > > alexlg guy
> > > > > > > > > > came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it.
> > > > > Just wanted to
> > > > > > > > > > tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the
> > > > > exact same
> > > > > > > > > > ground with him just a few days earlier.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Another message:
> > > > > > > > > > > > > [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
> > > > > > > > > > thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough
> > > > > people had
> > > > > > > > > > dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on
> > > > > something.
> > > > > > > > > > Even if you win, you lose...
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff
> > > > > like
> > > > > > > > > > "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about
> > > > > it", or using
> > > > > > > > > > "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev"
> > > > > being
> > > > > > > > > > important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow
> > > > > users, because
> > > > > > > > > > what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create
> > > > > awesome free
> > > > > > > > > > stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I
> > > > > found out
> > > > > > > > > > that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in
> > > > > non-technical ways.
> > > > > > > > > > This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a
> > > > > developer but
> > > > > > > > > > not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while
> > > > > pretending to be a
> > > > > > > > > > developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned
> > > > > from
> > > > > > > > > > communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only
> > > > > he's
> > > > > > > > > > doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project.
> > > > > It's easy
> > > > > > > > > > to relate to people that agree with you, they're already
> > > > > passionate GIMP
> > > > > > > > > > users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to
> > > > > really talk to,
> > > > > > > > > > because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an
> > > > > awesome project
> > > > > > > > > > you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a
> > > > > critic
> > > > > > > > > > into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition,
> > > > > pretending
> > > > > > > > > > to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for
> > > > > the dev team,
> > > > > > > > > > since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled
> > > > > assholes.
> > > > > > > > > > I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop
> > > > > Alexandre
> > > > > > > > > > from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me
> > > > > since I would
> > > > > > > > > > assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe)
> > > > > you guys
> > > > > > > > > > are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with
> > > > > this
> > > > > > > > > > behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
> > > > > > > > > > attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for
> > > > > someone who
> > > > > > > > > > either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Niccolo.
> > > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > > > Niccolo.
> > > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Niccolo.
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > Niccolo.
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > gimp-developer-list mailing list
> > > > > List address:    gimp-developer-list gnome org
> > > > > List membership:
> > > > > https://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer-list
> > > > > List archives:   https://mail.gnome.org/archives/gimp-developer-list
> > > > --
> > > Niccolo.
> > --
> Niccolo.