Re: [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>]

> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went
for, is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct

Ah, I see how you've been able to get away with it.

Fair enough.

On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 15:01 Alexandre Prokoudine <
alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 4:48 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com> wrote:
>
> > Regarding CCing people, my thread hasn't been approved, so I don't know
> > if people can read it.
> >
> > Regarding the rest, you don't have to present exhibits, we're not in
> > court. I'm giving you feedback about your behavior as someone who
> > represents the whole team (unless I got your pronuons wrong, you keep
> > saying "we"--possibly to give authority to your arguments--and you
> > misrepresent yourself as a developer of GIMP).
>
> I have never claimed to be developer of GIMP, publicly or privately -- you
> have zero proof of your claim. I actually correct people when they call me
> a developer, and I have enough verifiable proof of that.
>
> If you think that continuos piling of factually wrong statements will help
> your cause, I suggest you rethink your stategy.
>
>
> > Take this feedback however you want. So can the rest of the team, but
> > considering you've been speaking on their behalf it's important that they
> > know what you're doing and that people aren't happy. If your behavior is
> > appropriate for someone who represents the team, good to know. If it's not,
> > don't speak on behalf of everyone else and at that point you can be as much
> > of an asshole as you want with both newbies and people who disagree with
> > you.
>
> I will have to point out that name-calling, which you once again went for,
> is not welcome on our mailing lists as per code of conduct:
>
> https://www.gimp.org/mail_lists.html
>
> "Please make sure that you add value to the discussion, avoid repetitive
> arguments, flamewars, trolling, and ____personal attacks____."
>
> Please consider rethinking your interaction here.
>
> Good day to you.
>
> Alex
>
>
>
> > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 14:28 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> > alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 3:46 PM Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > OK. If you're bad at talking to people (since people come with
> > > > misconceptions although you could easily change that), as someone who
> > > > doesn't only speak for himself, you should just not talk to people.
> > > >
> > > > It's also not just me,  many people have the same problem with you. I
> > > > guess it's you against the world.
> > > >
> > > > Let's see if the rest of the team is aware of your behavior, and --in
> > > > case they have the courage to approve my message or at least reply--if they
> > > > approve of it (BTW, why don't you CC them, if you are so sure your behavior
> > > > is OK?).
> > >
> > > I don't need to CC people who are already subscribed to the mailing
> > > lists you posted to. This is how mailing lists essentially work: people get
> > > emails sent to those list.
> > >
> > >
> > > > I have thick skin (mind you, some people that have messeged me don't as
> > > > much, and are still upset about your attacks and were in tears),
> > >
> > > Oh yes, about that. The allegations. Since there have been only two
> > > other problematic cases with users in the past week, I'm confident I can
> > > pinpoint the relevant threads.
> > >
> > > Exhibit A:
> > >
> > > > > > A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
> > > came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
> > > tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
> > > ground with him just a few days earlier.
> > >
> > > This is this very thread:
> > >
> > >
> > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9ex8sl/
> > >
> > > There was a quite justified complaint that text layers are hard to use
> > > in GIMP, which I readily agreed with. Nevertheless, this user came to say
> > > that lack of maturity of that feature is present because of GIMP team's
> > > "mindset of "you don't need it" and "we don't like it"". The harshest thing
> > > I said in response was point out evidence of the contrary, then saying
> > > "Facts... Always such an inconvenient thing, isn't it? :)".
> > >
> > > I'd love to see here the cause of alleged tears or coming hard off the
> > > ropes.
> > >
> > > And Exhibit B:
> > >
> > > > > > [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
> > > entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
> > > dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
> > > Even if you win, you lose...
> > >
> > > This is this very thread:
> > > https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/
> > >
> > > Essentially, someone got steamed up because of having to spend shocking
> > > 3 minutes on "wading through a sea of jargon, buzzwords, mansplaining, and
> > > patting yourselves on the back" which is how this person characterized the
> > > official 2.10.8 announcement.
> > >
> > > "mention me by name in another thread entirely" is actually about the
> > > very same thread --
> > > https://www.reddit.com/r/GIMP/comments/9wrgwp/whats_new_in_gimp_2108_by_davis_media_design_this/e9oe05x/
> > > -- about the very same topic: providing a shorter list of changes between
> > > versions.
> > >
> > > And here is the "basically calling me a whiny baby" quote:
> > >
> > > "I don't see any way in Gitlab to view all files at the time of tagging
> > > a release, but I'm not sure if having to scroll through changes for the
> > > next version first [in an updated NEWS file] would give anyone a heart
> > > attack, save for our friend /u/Unchayned
> > > <https://www.reddit.com/u/Unchayned> here."
> > >
> > > There are facts, and then there are interpretations. I don't think our
> > > interpretations will ever match, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong.
> > >
> > > Alex
> > >
> > >
> > > > and I don't care what you say and do if you take responsibility for
> > > > your actions-- which you have to do since you not only speak for yourself
> > > > only, but for other people as well.
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Nov 15, 2018, 13:22 Alexandre Prokoudine <
> > > > alexandre prokoudine gmail com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Niccolo,
> > > > >
> > > > > There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
> > > > > conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
> > > > > are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
> > > > > drawing conclusions.
> > > > >
> > > > > When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases
> > > > > we tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have
> > > > > kept my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal
> > > > > abuse containing expletives.
> > > > >
> > > > > I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
> > > > >
> > > > > Alexandre
> > > > >
> > > > > чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hello.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > TLDR:
> > > > > > Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's
> > > > > > a developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things
> > > > > > that are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which
> > > > > > makes the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > FULL:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've
> > > > > > had a couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
> > > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
> > > > > > from the Reddit thread at
> > > > > > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
> > > > > > While it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
> > > > > > Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
> > > > > > ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade hundreds
> > > > > > of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
> > > > > > understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
> > > > > > GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
> > > > > > instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because, bla
> > > > > > bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I had
> > > > > > no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
> > > > > > more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just because
> > > > > > of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
> > > > > > what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with people
> > > > > > that have unapproved opinions.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to
> > > > > > perhaps getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
> > > > > > sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
> > > > > > nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
> > > > > > beast.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I
> > > > > > started getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre
> > > > > > attacked around Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
> > > > > > came off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
> > > > > > tell you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same
> > > > > > ground with him just a few days earlier.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Another message:
> > > > > > > > > [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another
> > > > > > thread entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
> > > > > > dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
> > > > > > Even if you win, you lose...
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like
> > > > > > "oh, you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using
> > > > > > "we" in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being
> > > > > > important here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because
> > > > > > what kind of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free
> > > > > > stuff for people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out
> > > > > > that he's not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways.
> > > > > > This is bad not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but
> > > > > > not from someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a
> > > > > > developer to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from
> > > > > > communities just because he implies that he's in the dev team.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's
> > > > > > doing a horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy
> > > > > > to relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
> > > > > > users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk to,
> > > > > > because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome project
> > > > > > you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
> > > > > > into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
> > > > > > to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev team,
> > > > > > since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre
> > > > > > from attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
> > > > > > assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
> > > > > > are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
> > > > > > behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his
> > > > > > attitude into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who
> > > > > > either does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Niccolo.
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Niccolo.
> > > > > --
> > > > Niccolo.
> > > --
> > Niccolo.
> --
Niccolo.