Re: [Gimp-web] Alexandre Prokoudine attacks on GIMP critics around the Web

[Trevor Rose <tarose trevor gmail com>]

Hi,

I’m nobody in particular, I don’t even use GIMP, but for some reason I’m
tuned in to this conversation and haven’t bothered unsubscribing ... BUT
might I offer a suggestion:

1 — it seems to me the most relevant points are as follows:
— it is vital to be able to critique the product in order to argue a case
for improvement
— emotional disagreements in such critique should be reduced as much as
possible or removed entirely
— the public image of your product should not suffer as a consequence of
such communication
— no valid suggestion arising from such critique should be missed, as this
constitutes missed opportunity

2 — the reason why this seems to be occurring ( from my outsider
perspective ), is because you’re using far too open systems for everything
... ie: it’s one thing to be open source with your code, it’s another
entirely to be open with your communications, as this allows anyone to say
anything for any reason and in any form they want, all of which creates
infinite possibility for error ... and here I am, a total stranger, with no
particular interest or involvement as a developer nor user, demonstrating
that fact ( though hopefully doing so in a way that might solve your
problem )

3 — the solution to the problem is to tighten up your communications
channels, and to use some other technology rather than just an email group,
and in which alternative system a person must be logged in, and each post,
thread and comment/reply is not only better organised, but can be
identified as per user ID, GROUP, and ROLE ... PLUS AND MOST IMPORTANTLY
you can constrain each unit of communication by using mandatory fields and
filters, in order to force clearer communication and remove some amount of
abuse, while also being able to ban anyone who takes their passion beyond
an accepted threshold/limit.

Whomever it was that wrote something like “this reflects badly on GIMP and
GIMP developers” is correct, as an outsider I can assure you it does,
because even if they’re not guilty of any one or another accusation, the
fact remains that I ( as an outsider ) shouldn’t be seeing any of this
happening in the first place, and the very best case scenario I can
attribute to it, is that no one involved in the development has been
bothered to fix what should arguably be a reasonably easy issue to fix.

There are so many better communication platforms out there than a group
email, I cannot understand why you’d be using it for a software development
project in which so many people can just write whatever they please.

Currently I’m writing a series of books, I’m using some software for that,
and the developers have a nicely organised forum for it ... they’ve been
around nowhere near as long as GIMP, their budget is SFA, and yet it’s rare
to see anything get even remotely impolite on their site ... now maybe
that’s because writers are nicer people? Maybe it’s because we are used to
writing and therefore more precise with our language, but whatever the
reason, I cannot imagine preferring them to use this kind of group email
over the system they do use ... and even that forum software isn’t very
advanced versus other open source options.

Your software should be open source, but your conversations should not be
open slather.



On Thu, 15 Nov 2018 at 23:22, Alexandre Prokoudine via gimp-web-list <
gimp-web-list gnome org> wrote:

> Hi Niccolo,
>
> There is a certain thing I'm rather horrible at - trying to a have a
> conversation with people who come with preconceptions about something they
> are not qualified to make judgments of and unwilling to learn before
> drawing conclusions.
>
> When stumbling upon your message that by not setting dates to releases we
> tell users to "f*** off" (which you later edited away), I should have kept
> my mouth shut. Nor should I have replied to your continuos verbal abuse
> containing expletives.
>
> I am truly and genuinely sorry about that.
>
> Alexandre
>
> чт, 15 нояб. 2018 г., 14:48 Niccolo Brogi <nkkollaw gmail com>:
>
> > Hello.
> >
> > TLDR:
> > Alexandre attacks GIMP critics around the internet implying that he's a
> > developer of GIMP and represents GIMP, using language and doing things
> that
> > are completely inappropriate for his (self-proclaimed?) role, which makes
> > the whole GIMP team look like crap for no reason.
> >
> > FULL:
> >
> > A little bit of a backstory (which you can skip if in a hurry): I've had
> a
> > couple of unpleasant exchanges with Alexandre. Our latest exchange is
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/e9doqjq
> > from the Reddit thread at
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9vneh8/gimp_2108_released/.
> While
> > it started innocently enough, it quickly turned nasty. What triggered
> > Alexandre was my opinion that scheduled releases are better than random
> > ones, because people like IT administrators might have to upgrade
> hundreds
> > of computers, and being able to plan for that is nice. I think he
> > understood I claimed the GIMP development team could and should refactor
> > GIMP to GTK3 and release in 6 months (which I never said). Regardless,
> > instead of saying "ah, no GIMP is better with rolling release because,
> bla
> > bla bla..." he started attacking me personally--basically saying that I
> had
> > no right to say that because I'm not a GIMP developer (but neither is he
> > more on that later). A missed opportunity to learn something: just
> because
> > of his tone, the discussion deviated from that and got uncivil, which is
> > what I observed always happens with him when he exchanges ideas with
> people
> > that have unapproved opinions.
> >
> > I tend to be blunt and ignore political correctness. Add that to perhaps
> > getting passionate or even emotional about stuff, and to be honest
> > sometimes I do get harsh replies and have to rephrase things I didn't say
> > nicely enough. However, exchanges with Alexandre are a totally different
> > beast.
> >
> > Why? A while after posting the comments I talked about above I started
> > getting PMs of "solidarity" from other users that Alexandre attacked
> around
> > Reddit. For instance, I was given permission to include:
> >
> > > > > A day or two ago I dared criticize GIMP [...] and that alexlg guy
> came
> > off the ropes so hard I was literally in tears over it. Just wanted to
> tell
> > you how validating it was to see you jousting over the exact same ground
> > with him just a few days earlier.
> >
> > Another message:
> > > > > [...] He even went so far as to mention me by name in another thread
> > entirely, basically calling me a whiny baby, once enough people had
> > dogpiled that he was forced to slightly change his stance on something.
> > Even if you win, you lose...
> >
> > Because he implies that he's a GIMP developer--by saying stuff like "oh,
> > you don't develop GIMP, you can't say anything bad about it", or using
> "we"
> > in connection with the GIMP dev team (with the word "dev" being important
> > here)--he seems to get some sympathy from fellow users, because what kind
> > of piece of shit attacks volunteers that create awesome free stuff for
> > people (which I agree with). It really upset me when I found out that
> he's
> > not at developer at all, but contributes in non-technical ways. This is
> bad
> > not only because I can excuse his attitude from a developer but not from
> > someone that writes articles on Facebook while pretending to be a
> developer
> > to please his ego, but because he doesn't get banned from communities
> just
> > because he implies that he's in the dev team.
> >
> > I think that if Alexandre's job is to "market" GIMP, not only he's doing
> a
> > horrible job, but he's being detrimental to the project. It's easy to
> > relate to people that agree with you, they're already passionate GIMP
> > users! Those that have some kind of issues are the ones to really talk
> to,
> > because you can explain things to them and since GIMP is an awesome
> project
> > you can change their mind or make them more informed, and turn a critic
> > into a passionate GIMP user (or even evangelist). In addition, pretending
> > to be in the dev team is good for his ego, but really bad for the dev
> team,
> > since it just gives the impression that GIMP devs are entitiled assholes.
> >
> > I'm aware that this email might not only fail to help stop Alexandre from
> > attacking people, but also cause more attacks towards me since I would
> > assume you sympathize with him, but so be it. Maybe (just maybe) you guys
> > are not aware of what's going on and don't actually agree with this
> > behavior, and (just maybe) you can get Alexandre to change his attitude
> > into one that is more productive and appropriate for someone who either
> > does or claims to represent the GIMP team.
> >
> >
> > Niccolo.
> > --
> > Niccolo.
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