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Today's Topics:
1. Re: A Digression on Digests (Matthew Barnes)
2. Re: A Digression on Digests (Patrick O'Callaghan)
3. Re: A Digression on Digests (Patrick O'Callaghan)
4. Re: A Digression on
Digests (brad)
5. Re: A Digression on Digests (Pete Biggs)
6. Re: A Digression on Digests (Adam Tauno Williams)
7. evolution free busy alignment... (Aravind Hampiholi)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 09:38:16 -0400
From: Matthew Barnes <
mbarnes redhat com>
To:
evolution-list gnome orgSubject: Re: [Evolution] A Digression on Digests
Message-ID: <
1301751496 21376 19 camel localhost localdomain>
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="ISO-8859-1"
On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 20:18 +1000, Peter Cave wrote:
> I hope I am complying this time - am really unfamiliar with lists.
That's awesome. You quoted an entire digest message to reply to a
thread about why digest messages are obsolete and evil and how we can
prevent users from directly replying to them.
I hope you're seeing the irony.
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 09:23:36 -0430
From: Patrick O'Callaghan <
poc usb ve>
To:
evolution-list gnome orgSubject: Re: [Evolution] A Digression on Digests
Message-ID: <
1301752416 6716 6 camel bree homelinux com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 09:38 -0400, Matthew Barnes wrote:
> On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 20:18 +1000, Peter Cave wrote:
> > I hope I am complying this time - am really unfamiliar with lists.
>
> That's awesome. You quoted an entire digest message to reply to a
> thread about why digest messages are obsolete and evil and how we can
> prevent users from directly replying to them.
>
> I hope you're seeing the irony.
+1
Words fail me ...
poc
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 09:40:00 -0430
From: Patrick O'Callaghan <
poc usb ve>
To:
evolution-list gnome orgSubject: Re: [Evolution] A Digression on Digests
Message-ID: <
1301753400 6716 21 camel bree homelinux com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 20:18 +1000, Peter Cave wrote:
[Entire redundant quote of digest deleted]
> I hope I am complying this time - am really unfamiliar with lists.
You're not, see below.
[...]
> Intuitively my intention would be (as in this message) to reply to the
> list but change the Subject heading to the desired message subject
> heading.
You don't appear to have understood my original post. This doesn't work.
As has been said countless times on this list (though as a newbie you
may not have seen it),
threading *does not depend on the Subject*.
Standard threading uses header information to relate replies to the
messages they reply to. Changing the Subject makes absolutely no
difference.
> Whether this does what is required I do not know - and not knowing how
> such replies are handled is one of the reasons I have always responded
> at the top of the digest and usually delete everything below so as not
> to send and resend bloated messages.
You are confusing top-posting with quote trimming. Don't top-post. Do
trim quoted material to what you are actually responding to.
> Maybe this is a "Down Under" thing but most responses (95%) I would get
> to emails in this part of the world are nearly always at the top of the
> previous message as most people cant be bothered scrolling down through
> the old stuff to find a response or the email has been suitably culled
> to get rid
of the unnecessary excess.
Nothing to do with Down Under. Corporate email is fixated on top-posting
as a way to record the entire history of a conversation (since no
trimming is done either). This is reinforced by email clients such as
Outlook and now many of the webmail systems including Gmail. In fact if
you use a BlackBerry it's so ingrained as to be almost impossible to
avoid (yet another reason that BBs are severely broken IMHO).
However in Internet *mailing lists* we have a different tradition, much
of it drawn from the Usenet system which was once the principal medium
for this kind of discussion. Remember that both mailing lists and Usenet
have eternal archives of everything anyone has ever said, so it's
unnecessary to quote anything except what you specifically want to
comment on. Of course most people won't follow this strictly, especially
for short messages, but use your judgment.
In
brief:
* Don't *ever* quote digests.
* Don't top-post, as it makes multipart conversations harder to follow.
* Don't quote more than you need to. The whole thing is on file anyway,
so you're just using more bandwidth and storage to no purpose.
And of course, as everything is on file, you can browse the history of
this list and see how many times people have already said all this
before.
poc
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 08:35:13 -0600
From: brad <
bradhaack fastmail us>
To: Patrick O'Callaghan <
poc usb ve>
Cc:
evolution-list gnome orgSubject: Re: [Evolution] A Digression on
Digests
Message-ID: <1301754913 1638 30 camel brad-desktop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 09:40 -0430, Patrick O'Callaghan wrote:
> Nothing to do with Down Under. Corporate email is fixated on top-posting
> as a way to record the entire history of a conversation (since no
> trimming is done either). This is reinforced by email clients such as
> Outlook and now many of the webmail systems including Gmail. In fact if
> you use a BlackBerry it's so ingrained as to be almost impossible to
> avoid (yet another reason that BBs are severely broken IMHO).
>
> However in Internet *mailing lists* we have a different tradition, much
> of it drawn from the Usenet system which was once the principal medium
> for this kind of discussion. Remember that both mailing lists and Usenet
> have eternal archives of everything anyone has ever said, so
it's
> unnecessary to quote anything except what you specifically want to
> comment on. Of course most people won't follow this strictly, especially
> for short messages, but use your judgment.
Nothing to do w/ corporate email or BB's. It's much easier to reply &
it's much easier to read a sequence of emails that are top posted. You
can see what was said at the top of the email and move on. If it's
bottom posted you have to scroll down to the bottom.
Tightly trimmed & bottom posted is OK & that's what is strictly
encouraged on this list so we should comply.
Traditions don't always make sense forever. Bandwidth and memory are
cheaper than time.
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 16:28:31 +0100
From: Pete Biggs <
pete biggs org uk>
To:
evolution-list gnome orgSubject: Re: [Evolution] A Digression on Digests
Message-ID: <1301758111 2466 55 camel red-barron>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-15"
> Nothing to do w/ corporate email or BB's. It's much easier to reply &
> it's much easier to read a sequence of emails that are top posted.
Like hell it is - it is just overly confusing - how many times have you
seen a message that is, in its entirety, something like "yes, I think
that is correct" followed by a few thousand lines of included email
conversation without any indiction of what they are actually agreeing
with. It's lazy and just transfers work to other people making them
continually move up and down through an email to try and work
out what
you are talking about.
e.g. if I just say to the next bit of your email
================
No, I think you are wrong.
> You
> can see what was said at the top of the email and move on. If it's
> bottom posted you have to scroll down to the bottom.
> Tightly trimmed & bottom posted is OK & that's what is strictly
> encouraged on this list so we should comply.
===============
What am I referring to? Without any context you can not tell if I don't
agree with the 1st, 2nd or 3rd sentence.
> Traditions don't always make sense forever. Bandwidth and memory are
> cheaper than time.
It's nothing to do with tradition - it's to do with making an email
conversation make sense.
OK. Look at it from another point of view - if you are working on a
word document, and you want to comment or change
something - do you put
all the changes & comments at the top in one big lump? No, you are
encouraged in the corporate world to use the commenting feature that
places the comments (and corrections) in the relevant place in the
document *so that it makes sense*. Even if you aren't using a word
processor and are doing it by hand, you still make comments in the text
at the correct place. So why can't people do that with emails? All you
are essentially doing is annotating someone elses email with your own
comments and sending it back to them - that's what a conversation is
about.
P.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 12:36:46 -0400
From: Adam Tauno Williams <
awilliam whitemice org>
To:
evolution-list gnome orgSubject: Re: [Evolution] A Digression on Digests
Message-ID: <
1301762206 12386 5 camel linux-yu4c site>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"
On Sat, 2011-04-02 at 16:28 +0100, Pete Biggs wrote:
> > Nothing to do w/ corporate email or BB's. It's much easier to reply &
> > it's much easier to read a sequence of emails that are top posted.
Bull $#^*&@^#, top-post messages are harder to read. One has to
remember that message are not always [even typically] read
in-thread-order (thus no mental-state-tracking is in play). Mail list
messages are often read months, or even years, later; either in list
archives or via any variety of search mechanisms. A
well-formed
inline-quoted messages is 10,000,000,000,000 times easier to
understand/follow and place in context.
One purpose of a forum is to facilitate discussion, a second and equally
important function is to serve as a knowledge-base.
> Like hell it is - it is just overly confsing - how many times have you
> seen a message that is, in its entirety, something like "yes, I think
> that is correct" followed by a few thousand lines of included email
> conversation without any indiction of what they are actually agreeing
> with. It's lazy and just transfers work to other people making them
> continually move up and down through an email to try and work out what
> you are talking about.
+1 lazy
+1 transfer-of-effor
> e.g. if I just say to the next bit of your email
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 2 Apr 2011 12:03:46
-0700 (PDT)
From: Aravind Hampiholi <
ahampi yahoo com>
To:
evolution-list gnome orgSubject: [Evolution] evolution free busy alignment...
Message-ID: <
462115 65087 qm web111503 mail gq1 yahoo com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
hi,
I am using ubuntu 10.10 with evolution 2.30.3. I have integrated the
evolution to exchange using OWA option.
I am seeing some misaligment in free/busy page, which makes it little
difficult to read the status of each attendee. Is there any solution/workaround
for this and has it been fixed in 2.32 release? Here is screen
shot of the
same..
--
regards
Aravind.
What ever you think, that you will be. If you think yourselves weak, weak you
will be; if you think yourselves strong, strong you will be. We are responsible
for what we are, and whatever we wish ourselves to be, we have the power to make
ourselves.
Swami Vivekananda.
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