Re: [Proposal] Remove some stuff from Application menu

[Shaun McCance <shaunm wolfram com>]

On Mon, 2003-07-07 at 02:41, Luca Ferretti wrote:
> On Fri, 2003-07-04 at 20:18, Shaun McCance wrote:
> > The house seems like a very poor metaphor in light of l10n issues, but
> > I'm at a loss to suggest anything better.
> > 
> 
> IMHO this is a 'minor' trouble. Same for a floppy for Save action.

Yeah, the floppy icon just gets sillier as time goes on.  I don't even
have a floppy drive on my home computer.  And I've never used the one on
my work computer.  The floppy icon has the singular advantage of being
used on just about every system for Save, so it's very recognizable by
anybody who has used a graphical interface in the last decade.

> > > > I don't think "the home concept" is all that hard.  I mean, it's just
> > > > where you put stuff.  Is it really that hard to understand that I put
> > > > stuff in my home directory?  As for "Personal Files", I'm not sure that
> > > > everything in my home directory qualifies as personal.
> > > 
> > > They are personal in the sense that other users can't access them (unless
> > > you explicitly tell otherwise).
> > 
> > Well, yes.  That's pretty much what I was saying.  Those of us who use
> > Unix and GNU/Linux in a corporate environment do share files with other
> > users quite often.  Never do anything that betrays the multi-user nature
> > of the system.  (I'm not saying 'Personal Files' necessarily does.  I'm
> > just repeating one of my mantras.)
> > 
> 
> Are there any better adjective in English for "Personal" ? 
> 
> Note that I was speaking about 2 desktop icons: "Personal Files" = $HOME
> and "Resources" = system:// + starthere://, the first (I've in mind a
> folder with an home emblem) one to open your $HOME, the second one for
> stuff more related to system in front of you or 'virtual' stuff such as
> applications.

I suppose part of my objection is that I view my home directory as more
than just 'Personal Files'.  Aside from the fact that there's shared
stuff in there, I also have configuration files and other stuff.

I guess this is stuff that the new user shouldn't really be concerned
with, but it still kind of rubs me wrong.  'Personal Files' just sounds
very limiting to me, and doesn't seem to encompass the entire "home
concept".  I'd prefer something that says "This is your directory"
rather than just "You can store stuff here if you like."

Perhaps somebody could come up with a term that's a bit broader, but
which doesn't rely on non-translatable metaphors.

> > You mentioned Gnome not being consistent with non-Gnome applications. 
> > And I agree in general.  But Gnome should certainly be consistent with
> > itself, all the way through.  Is the System Administrator's Guide going
> > to talk about users' Personal Files folders?  I think it would be silly
> > if it did, but inconsistent if it didn't.
> > 
> 
> I think we don't need to coventry the HOME concept in GNOME. I think we
> have to keep it in nautilus toolbar and everywhere we need to jump to
> home, especially 'cause I don't think we can translate the UN*X
> filesystem: there will be always an /home directory, so we have to keep
> somewhere the home concept and hope people want to learn it.
> 
> Just don't expose UN*X filesystem and it's English 'legacy' everywhere. 
> 
> GNOME wants to be the UNIX desktop for everyone, isn't it? So don't
> expose 30 years of UN*X history on first login.

Agreed.  I'm all for hiding complexity and making a desktop my mother
could use.

> > I don't see how that's an argument for desktop == $HOME.  I call tech
> > support for some Unixy program (written in, let's say, Motif).  The tech
> > support guy says home directory.  If I have 'Personal Files', I don't
> > know where my home directory is.
> 
> First the wet dream of everyone is remove s/Motif/GTK+ (as well as
> s/QT/GTK+ and, probably s/tk/GTK+).

Believe me, I don't have Motif apps because I like Motif.  But sometimes
I just don't have a choice in the matter.

> Second if support guy says home directory AND you don't know what is an
> home directory, probably you'll ask "What is the home directory" and
> support guy'll says "It's the place to store your personal files!". I
> suppose you pay support, so they HAVE TO explain it.

Perhaps.  Just because personal is an adjective he might use, it doesn't
mean it's the adjective he will use.  He might just say "It's where all
your files are stored."  That doesn't scream 'Personal Files' to me. 
Again, perhaps if a term could be found that actually says "All your
files are in here."

Also, a lot of support is gotten from volunteers in online forums, not
from paid tech support guys.  I'm imagining this exchange in some online
forum:

Newbie: How do I do X?
Guru: Go into your home directory....
Newbie: I don't know where my home directory is.
Guru: Go buy an introductory book on Unix/Linux.

Newbie then buys one of the many introductory books on the market, but
the book he buys doesn't use Gnome 2.6 (or wherever this change would
make it in).  Consequently, he still doesn't know where his home
directory is.  Worse yet, the book does use Gnome 2.6, but never once
mentions that 'Personal Files' == 'home directory'.

> >   If I have desktop == $HOME, I don't
> > know where my home directory is.  (Sure, it's right in front of me, but
> > do I know that?)  But if my desktop says "shaunm's Home", I can probably
> > figure out where my home directory is, unless I'm really not too bright.
> > 
> 
> But you have to know English language, or, better, UN*X internals :->

Sure, I'm already convinced on the l10n argument.

--
Shaun