Re: panel focus

[Bill Haneman <bill haneman sun com>]

Seth Nickell wrote:
> 
> On Mon, 2002-03-04 at 02:15, Bill Haneman wrote:
> > Seth Nickell wrote:
...
> Bill said:

> > However I do think that if you click on the panel, your app window
> > should defocus; otherwise we are violating the premise that the panel
> > is just a "special app" rather than a part of the WM.
> 
> Where did this premise come from? 

Well, the GNOME panel (or maybe this is rooted in sawfish history, not
GNOME history) is an exception to most panels in that it isn't part of
the WM, it's a separate process/app, and the WM spec has evolved to
recognize a special app/window type of DOCK.  

This is what I mean: yes, type "DOCK" is special, but it's not part
of the window manager.  So we can debate the degree to which we (or
more importantly, users) expect the panels to act like other windows,
but in theory they are in a category of their own.

> I don't want the panel to act like a
> special app. It already violates most of the concepts of a windowed
> application, and I think its confusing to tell users "actually, its a
> window". That's an implementation detail. The panel is part of the
> desktop. 

No, it's a window of type WM_DOCK.  Whatever that means... :-)

> Its behavior differs from "normal" apps in a lot of ways: You
> can resize it. It has no window borders. Its always on top (well, at
> least usually). In metacity (which is closest to the long term behavior
> I'd like to see) maximized windows don't cover panels. Etc etc.
> 
> Its not a window, or a special app, its a part of the desktop which is a
> distinct category shared only with the nautilus desktop (not file
> manager windows, note). In some sense its a part of every window, since
> it shouldn't grab focus from windows.

I still disagree with that last statement.

> > > For non-disabled users this focus stuff is a significant net loss, so
> > > I'd like to find a solution that doesn't mess with normal users at all
> > > but still leaves the panel accessible. It seems restricting focusing of
> > > the panel to keyboard mechanisms would work.
> >
> > I am concerned about the inconsistency implications of this, but as I
> > said
> > I don't have a problem with only giving the panel background "visual
> > focus
> > indication" if you click/nav to the panel and not a panel child.
> 
> That seems fine. The panel *is* inconsistent. It shouldn't behave like a
> normal application (or even a special application) because it isn't one.
> Its not a window. 

It's a window.

;-)         (is not!.... is too!....)

what's weirder, putting up a window and expecting the user to 
figure out that it "isn't _really_ a window", or calling 
it a "special window" with special rules?  I don't think there 
is a lot of profit in pursuing these questions.  Better to agree
on behavior that is reasonable and efficient for "ordinary" users 
(if such creatures exist) and users with various disabilities.

-Bill

> Its more like stuff that sticks to the edges of the
> space where you can put windows. If you think of a "viewport" analogy,
> its like stuff that's glued to the edges of the viewport, not something
> beneath the viewport you look down on. ;-) It should interact and
> interfere minimally with the workspace.
> 
> -Seth