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Re: [orca-list] Calling all braille users. I need your opinions.

You seem to have paid little attention to what I said the actual issues are for using Braille in flat review. As an example I say how I am unable to move to another control purely using the Braille display other than having to enter the clumbsy flat review and hunt out the control I need and also suffer a multi-second delay in some cases, and then once the control is found only have one option available for interact, click it, not even the option of right click it. There are other interactions hard/impossible to do from flat review, eg. a scrollable box (eg. the edit area of gedit or the page area of firefox) cannot easily be read beyond the visible.
I am speaking as a Braille user, from my experience of using a Braille display, my conclusion is flat review is clumbsy for the Braille display. I have to be honest I have little interest in the layout of the screen in the main, all the interface needs to do is allow me to give the computer my intent and for the computer to inform me of results of its actions. The Braille display and the graphical display sufficiently differ (IE. my Braille display only gives me 44 characters in one line as a single view where as the standard display gives many lines of text and graphics which can be seen as a whole) and so I don't see the two having the same way of interacting.
As I remember from when you previously tried to suggest it, you never convinced me and I doubt your going to change your mind as you're still banging on about this despite not having done anything to make your "perfect" way of interacting. If you think I have misunderstood what you're getting at (eg. may be you're not really meaning flat review despite saying we should use flat review) then may be you could explain a bit clearer and more precisely how it should work, or even create a sort of prototype.
Anyway as I don't see this going anywhere by discussing it further I intend to leave it here and may be put effort into what I think might work better and bring that forward when I have something to show. 

Michael Whapples
On 05/13/2010 07:48 PM, Halim Sahin wrote:

Hi,
On Mi, Mai 12, 2010 at 10:06:49 +0100, Michael Whapples wrote:

Regarding point 1, I actually have the reverse view. I think that the
focus tracking in Braille isn't best because it isn't integrated enough
with the focus tracking.

Hmm I think this can't be done more perfect.
The thing is it makes a difference when an user uses speech or braille.
In speechonly setups, the only object based representation brings the
best experience.
Using a braille display can display more details of the screen which
should be available for blind people as well.
Braille display should give more details from the physical window layout
like in flat review.


As an example, currently if I am reading
something on the Braille display and then I want to move to another
control, either I must move to the keyboard or use the clumbsy flat
review and do things very different to keyboard navigation and possibly

suffer a delay as orca enters flat review (eg.

If you have a physical layout you can simply more line up /down and
klick the right object with the routing keys.


thunderbird with a large
inbox suffers a significant delay here, but there are certainly other
cases). Flat review also has other issues which make it undesirable (eg.
flat review is a snapshot at a given time and so becomes invalid when
changes happen, in gnome-terminal this means Braille keeps getting
jumped back to the cursor whenever you try and move Braille in a
changing terminal). I thought flat review was really there just for the
case of a badly designed application, not as a main way of interacting
although that's what it seems to be for Braille (there is no way to use
the Braille display to tab/shift+tab/alt+tab/f10/shift+f10, etc, and
interact with the focus).

Yes the initial intention was to interact with bad designed apps but the
flatreview is the only way to use full potential of a brailledisplay.
I want to give you another example:

Place about 10 diferent shortcuts on your desktop.
E. G.
Computer   Trash   gnometerminal
the focus should be on computer.
If you have flat review enabled, you can simply click on trash or
gnome-terminal without leaving the brailledisplay.
This would be diferent than using speech synthesis because speech can
only represent one object at a time.
You don't know that trash or gnometerminal are on the same line.


My suggestion would be that Braille should work more with the system
focus, possibly have a way to switch to flat review (flat review is
there for a reason and that reason may come up for Braille).

Ok, read my notes :-).





I think its the above which really makes me feel Braille in orca is
lacking and not great, I can't keep my hands on the Braille display
while navigating the system.

You could if the flat is the primary operating mode.


On point three, this is another reason why flat review seems so clumbsy.
Adding more separators doesn't help those with small Braille displays,
the benefits gained may be lost by having to keep scrolling left and
right to find what you need. The one thing I could agree which may
benefit from some beginning/end indication would be links in firefox but
this is more than a flat review issue.


It's only an issue because flat review wasn't designed to use as a main
operating mode for braille.
Do you know the switch:
orca.settings.enableBrailleContext = False
in orca-customizations.py


Point 4, configurable in what way? Time can be specified and on a script
by script basis (set time to 0 for no message). I think more work is
going to be done to perfect these (eg. what sort of stuff should be
shown, should it be identical to speech or could it differ and be
shorter, etc).

Ok that's enough for me if these messages can be switched off
completely.
BR.
Halim
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