Re: [orca-list] Compare or not compare was: Re: Page presentation

[Hermann <meinelisten onlinehome de>]

am Mo 19. Mai 2008 um 10:12:00 schrieb Krishnakant Mane <hackingkk gmail com>:
> > > How do we learn if not by comparism? How can you explain and improve a
> > > world you don't know and you even don't want to know it?
> > > If we want to get anywhere, we must know the state of the art, and this
> > > means to compare the goals achieved by Windows and also by Mac with those
> > > we want to achieve.
> >
> > Don't we know what is better though? If we had the choice would we take a
> > slow browser or a fast browser? (I don't believe orca is slow with ff just
> > when search for forms).
> > But we have no reason to care about windows, because we can come up with
> > things that work for us.
> Exactly daniel, that was my point.
> for example we can sort out the short comings from many other sources.
>  another thread going on this list for example is talking about the
> problems with openoffice navigation.
> but the solutions are not coming from any windows software for that
> matter.  the solutions were in emacs and vim.
> so the free software community knows a lot better because firstly,
> most of the tools come from the efords of good students schollers and
> researchers.  take the example of latex for that matter.
> I know there might be some cool accessibility feature in a proprietory
> screen reader in windows.
> the page reading feature for example is a good feature and many of us
> even appreciated that.
> but it is wrong to implement certain things just because that's the
> way it is done on windows.  and just because a certain screen reader
> did it on windows, it does not become the *state-of-the-art*.
> probably that screen reader was not developed by taking the views of
> community.  probably those brains sitting in a highly well furnished
> lab, never went beyond what they think is right.
> so we in most cases won't need to care how things are done on windows.
>  and if it occurs to any of us that a certain feature is good, we
> don't do it because it is coming from windows based proprietory screen
> readers, but do it because it was good any ways.
 
And how do you know what's good? By simply take a look around and see what 
solutions others have found. I think that Will's approach is the right one: 
What's good for the user has to be done, and it does not matter at all, 
where it comes from.

> > > I completely disaggree. We have a lot of people here who come from Windows
> > > and they want to know Linux with Orca. It's normal that they come with
> > > certain aspirations and expectations and perhaps are disappointed to see
> > > such differences, to state it newtrally.
> We are freedom fighters not marketing people.  orca was made so that
> blind users get freedom in accessibility on gnu/linux os with gnome
> desktop.  why should a certain thing be done for those "disappointed "
> people just because they came from windows and should be given same
> kind of accessibility which in many cases is absolutely rubbish.

Apology, but that's an arrogant view. Who's that "we"? Who's to define what 
"we" have to do or not? And please, stay away from such idiological terms 
like "freedom fighters".
We do all this accessibility development, because it is urgently necessary 
for us, and not for the sake of any idiological commitments.

> > > So we have to face their questions, suggestions and their comparism, if we
> > > are really willing to convince them of the advantages of Linux.
>
> > Yes, but we won't just do things like windows for that reason.
> and why should we pay the cost of doing some things like windows just
> to convince some one to use gnulinux.  as I said above we are not here
> to market some screen reader business and sell the product to blind
> users.  I am not desirous of opening my jaws to let people put
> business into my mouth.

Again, an idiological and elitarian view. Why do we go to the public with 
Linux solutions? Wouldn't it be better to stay within our small, enlighted 
politically correct community, and let those silly Windows users stay happy 
with their third class and costy software?
It's not my point of view, because I don't tend to be cynical. I want to 
convince people that there's a better solution, so we have to talk to the 
people instead of rebuffing and offending them.
You may feel good in doing so, but I completely reject that attitude.

> > For example windows I hear buffers the web pages which I would think
> > everyone believes is worse than showing the page how it looks which orca
> > does.

"I believe" "I've heard", that's exactly the problem. Someone told you that 
Windows is a really bad OS, and you simply do believe it?
I feel we talk a completely different language, and I would suggest that we 
open up our minds and stop behaving that autistic.
Hermann