Re: Application Switcher

[Rovanion Luckey <rovanion luckey gmail com>]

I do without hazitation agree that the current application-switcher is
too complicated. And that is the underlying problem that I was trying
to solve with my alt-not-closing-the-application-switcher idea. A
mouseclick outside of the switcher or esc will do the job of closing
it.

Now samuels reasoning makes a lot of sense.
If the shell is shooting to become based around the idea of activities
such as conversation, entertainment and so on, it does not make sense
to have alt tab to be an application switcher. In a Mac environment
where applications such as firefox does not need to have an active
window open to be running it makes sense to be application centric.

Using the activities pane to switch between individual windows on a
workspace is not smooth, and therefore there needs to be a tool to
switch between windows on a workspace, or activity if you so will.
Because there is and should be no permanent taskbar or dock in the
shell there needs to be an alternative way to quickly switch inbetween
windows on a workspace. Maybe this is what alt-tab should be used for
in the shell?


2009/12/29 Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth <mazz0 mazz0 com>:
> Yeah, sorry, an Activity is what I meant by a task. I think what I'm
> suggesting is
> making Alt Tab a mechanism for switching between windows in the
> current activity, you've got the activities overlay for switching
> between activities, the idea of using alt tab to switch between both
> is messy. If we're going to differentiate between activities and
> windows then we need different ways of switching between the two.
>
> As for the second point, regarding window switching - the problem is
> the current complexity of selecting a specific window with alt tab.
> It's not simple.
>
> Personally, I'm against the focus on Applications. To me it's not
> about the tool I'm using, it's about what I'm doing with it. That's
> why the windows I'm using for my current activity are on the current
> workspace and other windows of the same applications are on other
> workspaces, for different activities. Why would I want to alt tab to a
> specific app and THEN pick a window within it - surely the point in
> Activites is that I pick an Activity then pick something, like an app
> or a document, within that. To that end, I envisage alt-tab being a
> window switcher for the current activity, showing every window for the
> current workspace. If you want to go to an application on another
> workspace use Activities (or some other switcher - Windows+Tab or
> something?)
>
> I don't see how, in the context of an Activities based environment,
> you're going to want to switch to a specific app, regardless of what
> Activity it's associated with.
>
> Does that make sense? Sorry if it doesn't and for the lack of
> formatting - my laptop's graphics card is overheating so I'm sending
> this from my iPhone.
>
> Sam
>
> On 29 Dec 2009, at 02:16 PM, Felipe Erias Morandeira <femorandeira igalia com
>> wrote:
>
>> Samuel Arthur Wright Illingworth wrote:
>>> I agree with that - the current workspace is generally going to
>>> contain
>>> the apps you're using for your current task, the workspace switching
>>> mechanism should be used to switch to other workspaces.
>>
>> Actually, that is supposed to be one of the main points of the Shell:
>> each activity gets its own workspace. Alt-Tab should not break this
>> idea.
>>
>>> As for window switching, why not just let the window list stay up
>>> for a
>>> second after the user releases alt?  If the user then presses tab (on
>>> it's own) the window switcher can stay letting them switch window
>>> with
>>> tab, if they don't, then it goes away.
>>
>> What is the problem that this would fix? Is it a real problem (i.e.
>> can
>> it be identified in user testing?).
>>
>>> As for the window selector - how about
>>
>> :-)
>>
>>
>> Felipe
>>
>>> 2009/12/29 Felipe Erias Morandeira <femorandeira igalia com
>>> <mailto:femorandeira igalia com>>
>>>
>>>   What do you think about Alt-Tab only showing the windows in the
>>> current
>>>   workspace? That would lower the complexity of the required
>>> interface by
>>>   reducing the number of choices; it would also make it possible
>>> to do
>>>   some helpful effect like Compiz does already (i.e. every press
>>> of Tab
>>>   causes the selected window to be moved forward). Some
>>> optimization could
>>>   be done for applications with multiple windows in the same
>>> workspace
>>>   (i.e. Gimp). I don't see the need to have Alt-Tab do complex
>>> things that
>>>   would in effect just replicate the functionality that should
>>> already be
>>>   in the Activity view.
>>>
>>>
>>>   Cheers,
>>>
>>>   Felipe
>>>
>>>   Rovanion Luckey wrote:
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Rovanion Luckey <rovanion luckey gmail com
>>>   <mailto:rovanion luckey gmail com>>
>>>> Date: 2009/12/29
>>>> Subject: Re: Application Switcher
>>>> To: Carlos Martín Nieto <carlos cmartin tk <mailto:carlos cmarti
>>>> n.tk>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes I'm talking about countries in asia and all over the world. If
>>>> you
>>>> wish only to look at the western world there are many countries in
>>>> eastern europe who do not use qwerty. And along that there are
>>>> english
>>>> speaking persons who do use Dvorak. But it sounds like the wasd
>>>> feuture isn't going to be going mainstream anyways. The result being
>>>> that there is no onehand way to orient trough the alt-tab
>>>> application
>>>> switcher.
>>>>
>>>> Anyhow, this idea can be broken down into two separate ideas, one
>>>> much
>>>> easier to implement than the other:
>>>>
>>>> The first idea being that currently marked application should be
>>>> chosen when alt is released rather than the application switcher
>>>> being
>>>> shut down. Pressing and releseing alt again in the window chooser
>>>> will
>>>> then activate the marked window.
>>>>
>>>> The second idea being clutterifying the application switcher so to
>>>> make the windows easier recognize. Maybe have all the windows
>>>> belonging to an application halfhidden underneath the icon for the
>>>> application and then when the application is hovered/chosen the
>>>> windows are shown side-by-side.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2009/12/29 Carlos Martín Nieto <carlos cmartin tk
>>>   <mailto:carlos cmartin tk>>:
>>>>> On lun, 2009-12-28 at 23:40 +0100, Rovanion Luckey wrote:
>>>>>> I was using the application switcher in Gnome-shell thinking
>>>   about how
>>>>>> much it made sense to have the application switcher to actually
>>>   switch
>>>>>> inbetween applications, not windows. That's really besides the
>>>>>> point
>>>>>> which is usability. The great thing about it is that it
>>>   reinovates the
>>>>>> application switcher that was designed at a point in time when
>>>>>> users
>>>>>> did not have that many windows running at the same time. The
>>>>>> general
>>>>> This type of at-tab has been done by Mac OSX for quite a while
>>>   already,
>>>>> it's not new, just a good idea :)
>>>>>
>>>>>> application switcher is a cluttered interface and is therefor
>>>   scarcely
>>>>>> used. Grouping the windows by application is the same innovation
>>>   that
>>>>>> Microsoft did with their new taskbar, but lets not speak about the
>>>>>> devil.
>>>>> :)
>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem with the application switcher in its current state
>>>   is that
>>>>>> the transition between applications and windows is not as smooth
>>>   as it
>>>>>> can be. You do at the moment have to use weird and odd
>>>>>> key-combinations to go from the application-row to the
>>>   window-row. The
>>>>>> wasd way of orientation is ruled out by the fact that large
>>>>>> parts of
>>>>>> the linux-using population does not use qwerty. That leaves the
>>>>>> user
>>>>> What large parts? Do you mean the Asian countries (or the French?).
>>>>> There's not that many people using Dvorak, are there?
>>>>>
>>>>> At any rate, WASD is only there because Xephyr (an embedded X
>>>>> server
>>>>> you can use to test the shell without affecting your real one)
>>>   doesn't
>>>>> set up the keys properly, so it's actually a debug feature (says
>>>>> the
>>>>> code, anyway).
>>>>>
>>>>>> without qwerty having to use his right hand either by the arrow
>>>>>> keys
>>>>>> or the mouse. This is not optimal for fast application-switching.
>>>>> You can use (and it's probably the fastest way) the mouse and
>>>>> hover/click on the icon.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The idea would be that you when pushing alt-tab choose an
>>>   application
>>>>>> to switch to just as the application switcher works in it's
>>>>>> current
>>>>>> state. But only application-icons should be shown. And rather than
>>>>>> than having the user to either push the applications icon with the
>>>>>> mouse or press down-key on the keyboard the application/group of
>>>>>> windows should be chosen when alt is released. If there is only
>>>>>> one
>>>>>> window belonging to the application there is nothing more to do
>>>>>> than
>>>>>> to switch to the appropriate desktop and show the window. If
>>>   there on
>>>>>> the other hand are multiple windows belonging to the same
>>>   application
>>>>>> these windows should be shown now just as windows are shown on
>>>>>> each
>>>>>> desktop in the activities view. So other windows on the current
>>>>>> desktop should be pushed aside as the windows belonging to the
>>>>>> application chosen quickly appear/slides in on the desktop. One
>>>>>> may
>>>>>> then use the tab key, the arrow keys or the mouse to select which
>>>>>> window you want to go to. Keys to activate the window chosen
>>>   could be
>>>>>> the alt and enter keys, or why not space?
>>>>> It could be useful, though it looks like a bit of a pain to
>>>   implement,
>>>>> but the developers should comment on that. Personally, I can see if
>>>>> becoming more of a hassle than a help, but we can't know that until
>>>>> someone implements it.
>>>>>
>>>>> cmn
>>>>>
>>>>>
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>>>>> http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-shell-list
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> www.twitter.com/Rovanion <http://www.twitter.com/Rovanion>
>>>> Steam: Rovanion
>>>> MSN: rovanion luckey gmail com <mailto:rovanion luckey gmail com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
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