Meeting Minutes 2010-03-07

[Shaun McCance <shaunm gnome org>]

Documentation Reviews
* Bruce's updates for Hamster were pushed by Milo.
* Milo thinks Hamster help is still missing something,
  would like somebody to look at them.
* Jim offered to review the Empathy help.
* Milo needs to test password-protected IRC channels.
  Jim knows somebody who might be able to help.
* How do we get tips from experienced game players for
  Strategy pages?  Suggested always having a Strategy
  page with a Help menu item, and having a note on how
  to contribute.  (post 2.30)
* Paul mentioned Tomboy Mallard help is getting merged.

Empathy Usability Report
http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/charlines-empathy-usability-report/
* We want to pick through Charline's Emapthy usability
  report point by point.
* Charline would like to meet on a week day.  Shaun
  suggested end of the day, after work hours for Milo.
  Will send followup email to list and Charline.

Developer Documentation Plan
http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/Planning/DeveloperDocs
* Call for help is vague, need more concrete items.
* Jim asked how non-developer documentation people could
  help.  Billy suggested proofreading.
* Shaun needs to figure out which technologies get pushed.
  Will email desktop-devel-list with an active proposal.
* Hackfest for developer docs?

GUADEC
* Shaun to propose a talk about user assistance.
* Would like to get some collaboration in.  Discussed having
  a documentation room, where others could join.  Check with
  organizers.

Help Summit/Hackfest
* We'll spend our hackfest day ripping apart the User Guide.

Future Meetings
* Although weekly meetings were proposed and agreed upon,
  Shaun and Paul can't make next week, and people will be
  at the Help Summit the week after.  Suggested to start
  weekly meetings as of April.


-- 
Shaun McCance
http://syllogist.net/

<shaunm> ok, let's start the meeting
<shaunm> who's here?
<j1mc> i just see the auto-linking and dita/docbook stuff as being relevant for ppl coming from those enviros
<billyoc`> Billy O'Connor here.
* j1mc is here
<shaunm> no pcutler
<shaunm> Gwaihir?
<Gwaihir> sorry...
<Gwaihir> I'm here
* Gwaihir is Milo Casagrande
<shaunm> ok, and phil said he wouldn't be able to make it today
<-- billyoc has quit (Ping timeout: 600 seconds)
--- billyoc` is now known as billyoc
<shaunm> documentation reviews
<shaunm> I posted a request for people to do reviews a few weeks ago for empathy, gnotravex, gcalctool, and hamster
<j1mc> i missed that, but would like to review the empathy docs.
<shaunm> I know Bruce Cowon had some updates for the hamster help.  did those get pushed?
<Gwaihir> yes, I commit+pushed them
<shaunm> awesome
<shaunm> but you wanted me to look at the hamster help as well, right?
<Gwaihir> I've been talking pvt with Hamster applet devs too, he contacted me
<Gwaihir> yeah... or at least someone that take a look at them, I think they are still missing something
<shaunm> j1mc: that would be great.  do you need any help from me to do it?
<Gwaihir> what I said to the him, btw, was that if nobody took a look at hamster help, I'll do that, but not for the 2.30
<j1mc> shaunm, no.  Gwaihir, i
<j1mc> 'll run the chges by you.  it was mostly ordering and a few text cleanups.
<Gwaihir> j1mc, cool
<j1mc> afaik, the empathy help is the most developed mallard help, so i wanted it to be extra good for the docs conference.
<shaunm> yeah, definitely
<Gwaihir> one thing
<Gwaihir> about the empathy help
<Gwaihir> it is necessary to test empathy with password protected IRC channel
<Gwaihir> there should be support for that kind of channel
<shaunm> just the channel is protected, not the server?
<Gwaihir> but I suck at IRC command and have no idea how to set up one such channel... I did try, but with no luck
<Gwaihir> looks like IRC channel
<j1mc> Gwaihir, i'll take a look
<shaunm> has anybody pinged the empathy developers about it?  they may be able to set up a channel for testing
--> pcutler (~pcutler mn-65-41-115-89 sta embarqhsd net) has joined #docs
<shaunm> hi pcutler.  we're just discussing reviews
<pcutler> sorry I'm late
<shaunm> no worries
<Gwaihir> shaunm, like two months ago I did contact the #empathy channel, but they said to take a look at freenode commands
* Gwaihir need to remember to ask also another thing on that channel...
<shaunm> ok, so what's the current status of the help for that?
--> claude (~claude 247-172 5-85 cust bluewin ch) has joined #docs
<shaunm> is the concern just that we're saying something that we haven't tested?
<shaunm> or do you not know what to write until you've done it?
<billyoc> :)
<billyoc> How do you write the help for the missing feature?
<shaunm> heh, very very carefully :)
<j1mc> is the feature not implemented yet?
<Gwaihir> shaunm, right now we say that empathy doesn't work with password protected IRC channel
<Gwaihir> so we need to test it with a password protected IRC channel, and in case update that topic, and that should be pretty straightforward to do
<shaunm> Gwaihir: will you be around later today?
<j1mc> a guy in the chicago loco team is a member of freenode staff.  i could test it if i knew of a password protected irc chan. i'll askk if he knows of one.
<Gwaihir> yeah, not much, 'cause is dinner time here though
<j1mc> maybe he could test it
<Gwaihir> so, count 4 hours to be safe
<shaunm> ok
<shaunm> I think this should be quick once we figure out the right voodoo
<shaunm> j1mc: that would be really helpful.  could you get him to pop in here in the next day or so?
<shaunm> one more thought, on gnotravex, for game help I'd love to see strategy pages.  but strategy can only be provided by people who play the game a lot, and have tips to share
<j1mc> shaunm, sure
<shaunm> how can we reach out to regular game players for that?
<pcutler> back in a couple
<-- pcutler has quit (Ex-Chat)
<Gwaihir> if they read the help, there's this small section that tells people to write to us (gnome-doc mailing list) their tricks/tips and whatever
<Gwaihir> but apart from that, we don't have anything else
<Gwaihir> yet
<shaunm> what if we just added a Strategy page, and we have a Help menu item pointing to it
<Gwaihir> that would be awesome
<shaunm> and that page can have a note telling people how to submit tips
* Gwaihir nods
<shaunm> if it's got nothing, sucky, but it still has the note
<shaunm> and if it does have some strategy, it still has the note
<shaunm> or, possibly, it could have a simple form on it that people could use to submit (has to wait for 3.0)
<Gwaihir> we are talking 3.0 here though...
<Gwaihir> or can we have the menu item in 2.30?
--> pcutler (~pcutler mn-65-41-115-89 sta embarqhsd net) has joined #docs
<shaunm> it would break string freeze
<shaunm> it's not worth breaking freezes for, I think
<Gwaihir> nope
<shaunm> ok, we can discuss this more on-list or in later meetings, since it's not 2.30 material
<shaunm> move on?
<shaunm> the empathy usability study
<shaunm> http://mairin.wordpress.com/2010/02/25/charlines-empathy-usability-report/
<shaunm> I think it would be nice to go through this point by point, as a team
<shaunm> Charline said she's like to join us for that
<shaunm> she asked me if we could possibly swing a week day
<shaunm> Gwaihir: I think that depends on you, mostly
<Gwaihir> yeah... it depends on the time of the day
<shaunm> sure
<Gwaihir> I usually am online during the day, but not really following the IRC channels
<shaunm> and I don't know what her time zone is
<Gwaihir> I think she's in London
<shaunm> ok, so maybe she'd be willing to do something that's just at the end of (or just after) the work day
<shaunm> and you're one hour later, right?
<Gwaihir> yes
<Gwaihir> that time of the day for me is fine
<billyoc> That's quite a list...
<shaunm> that'll be the middle of the work day for me, but I can swing it
<shaunm> billyoc: yeah, and it's a gem of real user experiences that we rarely get the luxury of seeing
<shaunm> ok, I'll send a followup email to try to get something scheduled
* billyoc nods
<shaunm> next topic
<shaunm> developer documentation
<shaunm> http://live.gnome.org/DocumentationProject/Planning/DeveloperDocs
<shaunm> it was pointed out to me that my call for help is very big and very vague
<billyoc> Well, there's a lot missing.  :)
<shaunm> I think I'll get better responses if I list some real tasks that people can sign up for
<shaunm> no doubt
<billyoc> Bugzilla items for all missing docs?
<shaunm> so what I want to strongly encourage is for all of the content to actually be planned before it's written
<shaunm> this is a bit of a chicken-and-egg for me, because it's hard to give small tasks without a plan, but for me to develop a plan on my own will take a while
<j1mc> shaunm, have you gotten much response frrom the dev community?
<shaunm> the howtos are probably the area that are going to be most exciting for most contributors
<shaunm> they can write about something they think is really cool
<shaunm> j1mc: very little, unfortunately
<shaunm> two people offered to help, and two others replied with some feedback
<shaunm> oh, and I had a nice irc conversation with aruiz about it.  he had some good feedback as well
<j1mc> as a non-dev, how can doc contriibutors help out?  
<shaunm> good question
<j1mc> i saw that, and thought it was over my head.  maybe more for Gwaihir and such
<j1mc> who have more dev and doc experience
<shaunm> doc people could help plan some of the guides
<j1mc> put together stubs?
<billyoc> j1mc: Those docs all still need proofreading.
<j1mc> plan and put together stubs
<j1mc> billyoc, that makes sense
<shaunm> I think a huge roadblock for me is knowing what technologies to push
<billyoc> In my experience, another dev proofreading my docs will skim the non-technical stuff and jump right to the code snippets.  
<j1mc> all, i have to go... i'll be doing updates to projectmallard.org, so let me know if there are improvements you'd like to see.  i have a few notes here: http://pastebin.ca/1827260
<j1mc> otherwise, just email me
<shaunm> thanks j1mc
<shaunm> if you're online later, give me a ping
<shaunm> billyoc: are you on gnome-doc-list?
<billyoc> Yes
<shaunm> cool
<j1mc> shaunm, ok.  
<j1mc> thx, all
<shaunm> what pieces of the developer docs are you most interested in?
<-- j1mc has quit (Leaving)
<shaunm> so each of the guides is really its own task.  needs a separate content plan, and probably doesn't block on any other content
<shaunm> the platform overview should be the skeleton for what sorts of things get addressed in the intros and howtos
<shaunm> and for which reference material we actually focus on
<shaunm> I think the intros and howtos can largely be chunked into small tasks that I can ask people to help with, and that will get a better response rate
<shaunm> but I first need to know which pieces
<shaunm> (I suppose I can start out doing the obvious pieces, like gtk)
<shaunm> I think what I need to do is try again to get a discussion on d-d-l.  and maybe this time, instead of asking, actively proposing what I think it should be, and see if anybody complains
<billyoc> As far as what to push, I like to start at the lowest level.  So when you do a 'jhbuild list', the first items to list are the most low level and therefore the most critical.  They *must* be the most heavily documented, in much the same way as they must be the most optimized.  
<shaunm> (not looking forward to that thread)
<shaunm> yeah
<shaunm> all right, anything else on this topic?
<billyoc> As far as asking, don't.  If anybody complains about priorities, take that as an offer to volunteer to write docs.  ;)
<shaunm> I like the way you think
<shaunm> a hackfest could push the developer docs pretty far, I think
<shaunm> billyoc: is that something you'd be interested in?
<billyoc> Yes, definitely.  
<billyoc> I wrote docs for bakery/gtkmm etc. a while back.
<shaunm> oh cool
<shaunm> I might have a plan for a hackfest
<billyoc> Great venue for doc ideas, you see the same questions recurring, the same confusion over how to do this or that...
<shaunm> ok, does anybody have anything else?
<shaunm> oh, the help summit is on the agenda.  does anybody have any questions about that?
<shaunm> Gwaihir, pcutler ?
<pcutler> for the doc reviews, tomboy will be merged in today and available in tomorrows release
<shaunm> should have discussed this before j1mc left, I guess
<shaunm> oh!
<shaunm> awesome.  I thought tomboy wasn't going to happen, because they wanted to support older distros
<Gwaihir> do we have an idea on what we would like to do that day?
<Gwaihir> not the help summit per se, but the monday Gnome doc thing
<shaunm> is it too early to think about the user guide?
<shaunm> with all the 3.0 stuff up in the air so much
<pcutler> I think we could, couple ideas
<pcutler> review the current user guide and start making a list of:
<pcutler> 1. all the stuff that needs to be ripped out
<pcutler> 2. all the stuff that needs updates
<pcutler> 3. all the stuff that gnome-shell will replace
<pcutler> is there an easy way to print out the user guide?
<shaunm> yelp can do an entire-document print
<shaunm> don't know how good it is
<shaunm> or you can manually create an all-in-one-file html with the xslt in g-d-u
<Gwaihir> cool, we could use a couple of such paper printouts and work on them 
<pcutler> i might ping you later this week than with the command I need and try to print out copies for us
<shaunm> might be easier to work from just the outline though
<shaunm> easier to flip through and mark with a red pen
<pcutler> i still find killing trees better for that kind of stuff  :/
<shaunm> me too
<Gwaihir> yeah
<shaunm> is phil coming, btw?
<pcutler> haven't heard, but it's a little late to book an international flight from a cost perspective
<Gwaihir> haven't hear from him...
<Gwaihir> I know is busy bee working on a book
<shaunm> ooh, for real publication?
<Gwaihir> yeah... but I don't know if I can talk about that...
<Gwaihir> :-)
<shaunm> all right, so we're going to start tackling the user guide at the summit? 
<Gwaihir> sounds good to me
<pcutler> we should try
<pcutler> my backup plan is to work on banshee docs  :)
<shaunm> I think that will easily consume what little time we have
<shaunm> anything else?
* Gwaihir wants to go up the Sears Tower :-)
<Gwaihir> pcutler, we can start writing something down between banshee and rhythmbox too
<shaunm> we need to run longer events so we can do stuff like that
<shaunm> UX hackfest lasted a week
<Gwaihir> yeah...
<Gwaihir> oh... can't we do that at GUADEC?
<Gwaihir> are you guys planning on going BTW?
<pcutler> Gwaihir: yeah.  I have all the topics brainstormed (sure I missed a few) and stubs in banshee git
<pcutler> I'll be at GUADEC
<shaunm> pcutler thinks I should go
<pcutler> damn straight!
* pcutler is trying to figure out why his key isn't working with GNOME git
<shaunm> I guess I'm going then.  I'll put together a proposal for a talk
<shaunm> we should definitely try to get some time together at guadec
<Gwaihir> I think I'll be there too
<Gwaihir> 'cause I really want to be there this year
<shaunm> maybe even something officially on the schedule.  like a documentation hacking room, and people can join
<Gwaihir> yeah
<shaunm> ok, I want to make pancakes.  anything else to discuss?
<shaunm> oh, I have something
<shaunm> I know I proposed weekly meetings, but I can't make it next week, and we'll be in chicago the week after
<shaunm> but you don't need me to have a meeting next week
<pcutler> let's start in april then, let's get through 2.30 and the hackfest
<pcutler> next week is bad for me too, wife gone for the weekend
<shaunm> ok
<Gwaihir> cool
<-- jjardon has quit (Saliendo)
<shaunm> I'll email the list about it
<Gwaihir> let's start from april
* billyoc nods
<Gwaihir> who's saving the log?
<shaunm> I am
<Gwaihir> great
<shaunm> I'll send minutes and the log later, after pancackes
<pcutler> thanks
<shaunm> ok, cool.  thanks everybody
<Gwaihir> thanks you all