Re: Decisions you didn't intend to make [Was: Minutes of the meeting (2006-07-31)]

[Jeff Waugh <jdub perkypants org>]

<quote who="Elijah Newren">

> On 8/1/06, Jeff Waugh <jdub perkypants org> wrote:
> > I am *really* surprised that this decision was made and published, given
> > that on numerous occasions it was clearly stated within the team that we
> > were *not* going to make a broad decision about Gtk# applications in the
> > Desktop suite...
> 
> Forgive me if I'm forgetting, but I'm not aware of any such occasions.  I
> am aware that at the last meeting you said you felt it wasn't a decision
> that we should make, but nowhere that anyone else said or felt the same.
> 
> > Preferring to focus on the question of Tomboy inclusion *alone* in this
> > release cycle.
> 
> I assumed that this was your preference, and that you were of the opinion
> that Tomboy should not be part of the desktop. We weighed things
> accordingly at the meeting.

It seemed pretty clear to me during the first meeting that there was
agreement on this point (note that my position on Tomboy is not relevant to
my position on whether or not the release team should be making decisions
regarding Gtk# and the Desktop suite).

> To be honest, from my vantage point all I could see you doing was
> repeatedly claim that people were conflating the issues without explaining
> why they aren't intrinsically connected.

That was explained in my (lengthy, explanatory) email to d-d-l.

> > making a decision that, all things considered, is inappropriate for the
> > release team - alone, at this time, with the non-specific discussion
> > we've had so far about this issue - to make.
> 
> Perhaps I'm missing something, but I definitely don't follow. Care to
> explain why it's inappropriate for the release team to make?

Note what I said: It's inappropriate for the release team - *alone, at this
time, with the non-specific discussion we've had so far on this issue* - to
make this decision.

> I think that if it was an issue that the release-team should not have
> decided, then the board should have officially stepped in and said so at
> some point.  That didn't happen.

I was not speaking for the board, but I felt it was pretty clear (and also
thought it was agreed) that it was an inappropriate time and circumstance
for the release team to make the policy decision regarding Gtk# and the
Desktop suite. It was not necessary to make this decision, this particular
aspect of the broader discussion (which I attempted to deconflate) was not
discussed in sufficient detail, and it is the kind of decision that has
*very* wide-ranging impact for all stakeholders in GNOME, not just the very
near developer community. That's why I marked it as "short to medium term"
in my email about the broader discussion.

> > I don't have an immediate idea about how to fix this. Simply noting that
> > this is the release team's suggestion, and that it is not a final
> > decision would be a good start. Unfortunately, it already appears as if
> > this is a final decision, and we will have to deal with some, if not all
> > the fallout.
> 
> I'd be more than willing to state that some individuals want to take the
> decision to the foundation board, and reminding everyone that the
> foundation board has oversight of the release-team and ought to exercise
> that oversight when they feel it's in the community's best interests.
> Would that help you feel better?

Possibly - like I said above, I do not have an immediate idea about how to
fix this, and I am not willing to jump to any conclusions or make any
assumptions about it right now. That is another way to approach it, but it
is laden with additional problems ("FOUNDATION BOARD OVERRULES RELEASE TEAM
ON MONO DECISION" is a pretty clear message you could take from it). I just
wanted to state my case and think about it a bit - any action we take at
this point will be seen in a different light. I know there are going to be
people who think I'm an arsehole just for sending these thoughts to r-t. So
be it.

> > Crucially, this was sent without a huge amount of thought as to
> > messaging,
> 
> Ouch.  I was a touch offended at first...
> 
> > so that also complicates things (Elijah, I know you spent quite a bit of
> > time trying to communicate this well, but your audience was the
> > community alone, not the entire audience of people who will consume this
> > message; if
> 
> ...but I have to admit you are correct about who I was thinking of when
> targetting the message.

That's exactly why I said it that way. :-)

- Jeff

-- 
linux.conf.au 2007: Sydney, Australia           http://lca2007.linux.org.au/
 
     "On Tuesday I saw Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon with Zack and two
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