Re: Concerning the hyphen confusion in BiDi (was: Re: Bidirectional Bugs in Hebrew)

[Omer Zak <omerz actcom co il>]

I consider the problem to be one of man-machine interface.  I personally
feel annoyed when I have to type the unnatural-feeling sequence of HEBREW
LETTER + DIGITS + MINUS to get the effect that I want (HEBREW LETTER +
HYPHEN + DIGITS), whereas if I typed LTR text, I'd get directly the
sequence which I want.

Usual usage of such sequences is in context where it is not terribly
important to have exact correspondence between sequence of typed
characters and the sequence as stored in file (in Logical Hebrew order).
When and if I want to be precise (such as in cases of text followed by
negative number), I'd type them in a more laborious way.

Another problem is that there are no separate character codes for hyphen
and minus sign in Hebrew keyboards.
                                             --- Omer
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On 9 Nov 2000, Owen Taylor wrote:

> 
> Omer Zak <omerz actcom co il> writes:
> 
> > I would like to offer a fresh point of view on the problem of hyphen/minus
> > sign between Hebrew letter and the number following it.
> > 
> > Conceptually, there are three text orderings:
> > 1. The sequence of characters, as they are typed by an user on a text
> >    editor.
> > 2. The sequence of characters, as stored in a file in "Logical Hebrew
> >    order".
> > 3. The sequence of characters, as displayed visually - in "Visual Hebrew
> >    order".
> > 
> > In all discussions so far, we made the implicit assumption that (1)==(2).
> > Then we used the Unicode BiDi algorithm to convert from (1),(2) into (3)
> > and cursed why the user has to suffer the agony of typing first an Hebrew
> > letter, then a number and only then the separating hyphen if he wants to
> > see letter-hyphen-number sequence.
> >
> > I believe that it is OK to store such a sequence as letter-number-hyphen
> > in a Logical Hebrew ordered text file.  Such a sequence would be displayed
> > (by Pango and other applications using the BiDi algorithms) as
> > letter-hyphen-number (from right to left).
> 
> But this is almost certainly the _wrong_ sequence of characters to
> store in the file. Most likely the right sequence is:
> 
>  HEBREW LETTER + HYPHEN + RIGHT TO LEFT MARK + NUMBER
> 
> (Other possiblities are present as well)
> 
> Your sequence is most likely going to confuse automatic text
> processing algorithms. The standard for Unicode is logical order -
> characters appear in the order they are read.
> 
> Now, I don't know how feasible it is to ask users to add RLM in the
> appropriate place, but if the input software is adding anything
> automatically, it should be that, not reordering the text into
> something that just happens to appear in the right order.
> 
> But in any case, the problem is really that if the user's keyboard
> doesn't distinguish minus and hyphen, then there is an ambiguous input
> sequence, and the user is going to have to provide disambiguation, by
> selecting RLM from a right-click menu, selecting the text and entering
> a "Force Right to Left" command, or whatever.
> 
> (And these disambiguation techniques are going to be needed
> ocassionally for other sorts of mixed text anyways.)
> 
> Regards,
>                                         Owen