Re: Localized Pages

["Felipe Contreras" <al593181 mail mty itesm mx>]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Rose" <menthos menthos com>
To: "Bennett, Daniel" <daniel bennett jnli com>
Cc: "Felipe Contreras" <al593181 mail mty itesm mx>
Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2000 3:21 PM
Subject: Re: Localized Pages

> Yes, in my experience, the majority of computer users use software
> targeted to their language. However, the situation is somewhat different
> if you only look into the UNIX/Linux field, because of historical
> reasons. In the past you could only use UNIX if you understood English,
> since there wasn't any localization to speak of in the UNIX field, since
> UNIX was for researchers in white coats, and for servers only. Noone had
> heard about the "stupid" idea of UNIX on everybody's desktop.
>
> However, that is changing, and I think you are familiar with that
> change. UNIX is moving to the desktop thanks to Linux and efforts like
> GNOME and is moving to attract desktop users. Ease-of-use and a nice,
> competitive, desktop is one part of that, localization is another. I've
> been involved with Linux localization in two years now, and my
> experience is that it has changed fast. Linux is catching up quickly in
> terms of localization, at least for "western" languages that use
> variations of the roman alphabet.

>From my experience it's not the same for Latin American users.

> But of course the majority of hard-core Linux users probably still uses
> English. Just as the majority of Linux users today probably still are
> geeks and at least know some command-line stuff, the Linux users of
> today probably mostly still use English. That doesn't mean that the
> average Linux user of tomorrow will be like that.
>
> I think some of the misunderstanding between Felipe and me is that I was
> speaking about average computer users ("Joe User"), on companies and
> home, not just Linux-using geeks like myself, when I said that
> localization is used by most users.

Might be but we still need to attrack a lot of geeks to the gnome-site.

> > I'm not arguing with your argument.. I can cope with
> > occasionally getting what I didn't ask for if it means the rest of the
> > world will get what they can understand more often.  But to ask the
> > question: just how many people are like Felipe? won't kill anyone.
>
> If you look among current Linux-using geeks, I'd say lots o'them. If you
> speak about computer users on average, I think that part is rather
> small, as small as the geek quota is on the average population.

The average for Latin America I think whould prefer the site in english. Now
I'm thinking that it whould be good to state for what kind of useres will be
the gnome site, "Joe Users" or geeks, I think the geeks have more importance
than Joe ones, let's say 70%-30%. Also there are very different kinds of
sites and I know there are a lot better in spanish that in english, but
that's because those ones where not translated, but designed for that
language. I  see the new gnome-site somewhat like sourceforge, if the mother
tonge of someone is spanish take a look to the translated site of
sourceforge in spanish, it really sucks, it seems like a different laguage
for me, "Open Source" is not "Código Fuente Abierto" for me, and any way
neither the front page is totally transalted, never mind the rest of the
site. If we plan to add serious translation I hope it get better that this.

> However, I think the main purpose of gnome.org is attracting new users
> to join in in the GNOME community. That is attracting new,
> windows/mac-using users to the Linux/GNOME camp. Those users expect a
> fair amount of localization, as well as they expect a fair amount of
> ease-of-use. Even experienced users like when things just "work" like
> expected, no manual intervention required, as long as choice is
> preserved. It doesn't matter if it's about a new sound card that "just
> works" when you put it in your Linux machine, or the Linux machine
> defaulting to your preferred language the first time you log in (since
> you selected that language in the installation). I think the web page
> should represent that ease, by not requiring manual intervention to just
> get the language you have already set in your preference.
>
Here I think Chrisitian is think of the pepople that doesn't understand a
bit of english or don't want to enter to a site in english.
>
> >> Was it US-centric? How come?
> >
> > Oops, sorry, it appears I put words in your mouth.. How about
> > "English-centric rant"..
>
> Then why English-centric? I assume you're american, that is why I use
> the word "international" for everything outside the USA. But I'm
> Swedish, and my "experiences" are both as a non-English Linux user and
> from translating various pieces of software into Swedish for the last
> three years. Nothing in my words was intended to be US-centric or
> English-centric, other than that my assumption was that your native
> language was English and you live in North America.
>
>
> >>> Your last point is, basically, that depending on which way we go
> >>> we'll either annoy people with a translation they did not want, or
> >>> inhibit people without any English experience from using the site at
> >>> all.  Which one is worse? The according to you the second one.. and I
> >>> agree with you that the best solution is to account for the worst case
> >>> (assuming the technology works).  But it still doesn't mean that
Felipe
> >>> is a Mexican-American nationalist troll set out to push English as the
> >>> Ubersprache.
> >>
> >> It sure seemed so. And the funny thing was that "English" was spelled
> >> wrongly in that troll. If there is anything funny to be said about it.
> >
> > That's 'cause the man is Mexican!  That's why I was hoping you'd
> > cut the guy's English a little slack..
>
> Personally, I'm having trouble to take a guy seriously who says that
> people who don't understand English shouldn't be allowed to use
> computers, and at the same time writes bad English himself. That was I
> thought was so funny about that. It was also the only thing I thought
> was funny about it.
>
Yea, it's funny the way I told it, was a mistake.
>
> > How can you demand that we help
> > out people who aren't fluent with English only to turn around and roast
> > someone while claiming that lack of English knowledge is no excuse?  Can
> > it get any more hypocritical?
>
> I'm the one who wants to help out people who aren't fluent with English
> or don't understand it at all, and respect their situation. Felipe
> isn't, according to his statements, so I just found it amusing that he
> had problems with his English himself, just like me and most of all
> people who's native language isn't English.
> If there is anyone that is hypocritical, it would be the guy who says
> that if you don't speak English you shouldn't use computers, and on the
> same time doesn't speak good English himself.
>

I don't speak nor write english so well, because I have not needed it, but I
hope you see that I understand it well, that's because it's something you
learn with the experience of reading it, and since the most information
about not just computers, but everthing is in english I was forces to learn.