Re: I am kind of anti-theme

[raster redhat com]

On 26 Jan, Max Watson shouted:
->  Hello All -
->  	I would just like to say that I have concerns over the direction 
->  GNOME development has taken regarding themes. If I am incorrect in 
->  any of these assumptions, please put my mind at rest.
->  
->  My first worry is that it will be difficult to support, for 
->  both freeware and especially commercial, an application written for a 
->  desktop where the whole super-configurable "themes" thing is in 
->  effect. I can just imagine the tech support call (or frantic email): 
->  "The program just dumps core when I move my pointer of that little 
->  round  thing that highlights like a dashboard from a '57 Chevy." or 
->  "The help file says click on the button that says 'Send' but my theme 
->  is lilac on neon green and I can't see what the buttons are labeled."

Themes are no different.. you can already do this in gtk.. just make
both the font and the buttn color, lets say black in your "rc" file 
the app reads. Good luck. If a user uses a theme that is unusable - that
is the users preference. I don't believe it is up to the programmer to
determine what he user wants - the user should know better what he/she
wants. If themes are unusable, I doubt many people will use them. Those
users that have lest say black on black themes or your lilac on green
horridly unradable theme are the ones who are going to bother tech
support anyway with stupid questions - just ask tech support people.
There is a whole class of people like that.

->  I guess that I am kind of insulted too, that I (as a program 
->  designer) can put a lot of effort into the visual layout and general 
->  aesthetics of a program I labor over for day, months, or years, and 
->  some bonehead can come along and turn my attractive and intuitive 
->  interface into the front of a Sony Discman(tm). I have never 
->  found stereo equipment so fascinating that I would want to stare at 
->  it all day on my screen.

Yet again.. it is up to the user. does't the user come first? If we're
writing a desktop for programers only - I'll just dissapear and write
all my own code in raw Xlib and never give it to anybody. GNOME is
there to make a desktop for users. All the programmers in GNOME I'm
sure are more than capable fo editing the right rc files in what they
currently have to have a perfectly usable desktop.

And that bonehead can already stomp all over it.. just change the source
or gtkrc file or whatever to have black on black... So we're not
changing this by adding themes. It's merely formalising them and making
them powerful. Your layout probably wil never fundamentaly change - but
if you think your app looks great wiht a 5-point font ina tiny corner..
in 640x480, i'm sure the guy rning in 1600x1200 doesnt like it too much
- and your design is, in this case flawed. And then in reverse. If the
guy in 1600x1200 write an app to use nice 24-point fonts, and the
640x480 guy runs it.. OOPS.. its so huge he can't even see all of it! A
theme willallow global settings for fonts, size, colours, bg's, fg's
pixmaps, border styles, scrollbar positioning etc. Themes are a
user-centered  interface. Currently everything is programmer-centered,
which is a little selfish on our parts as programers, me included. 

Another point is.... programers are in general, in the free software
world, horrid artists. I don't mean any offence - you may be, but many
are not. Just look at most apps written for linux - most have ugly hand
dawn pixmaps as buttons that could definitely be beter. If a theme -
drawn by a skille dprofessional artist provided starnard commonly used
buttons, a programmer could save time by not drawing them, and code
space to load the images, and also be sure the best looking images will
be used - at least for the user they will be. If the user never changes
the theme - you keep the defaults. If the button is not one of the 100
or 200+ standard buttons, then you may have to resort to current
methods of making your own,but if one of the standard buttons is close.
Use it.

Does this aleviate your "fears" ? I know where you are comig from. I am
also a programer. Have been for many many many years. But after 14
years of graphcis prgramming experience, i have come to the conclusion
- let the user decide. The user is aleays hapier then.

->  	Here is something else I have been wondering: Since Red Hat has that 
->  whole RH Labs thing going on with Raster working on GNOME, and Raster 
->  also being the developer of Enlightenment, can I assume that RH will 
->  ship GNOME as the standard desktop in their distribution? If so, will 

that has yet to be seen. Enlightement is undergoin a fundamental
rewrite. It may be a few months before it is even usable.

->  E be the wm they ship? I am guessing that E will be the first (if not 
->  the only) wm to be GNOME aware/compliant/whatever. Are any other wm 
->  maintainers working with GNOME? Does scwm still plan on providing 
->  GNOME support? So many people use RH, and it is often used as a 
->  reference for software requirements (Redhat Linux 4.2 or equivalent, 
->  etc.), that whatever wm they choose will be the one many, many people 
->  use. It does not matter that you can remove it and install another 
->  that is GNOME-aware or even one that is not, most people still will 
->  never be able to do it, or they will be too lazy to be bothered with 
->  the hassle. So I guess my real question is will there at least be a 
->  "normal" looking theme that looks and acts pretty much how all 
->  current popular GUIs act? Businesses do use Linux (and RH) a lot, 

YES. gnome will ship by default as "boring grey beveled" - but I don't
think that it can be said businesses want that. I have perosnally have
had men in suits come up and ask what my desktop was - they wanted to
buy it for windows. I had to tell them it was UNIX. I think the
perception that grey is busines is merely du to windows. the business
people actually would love something fancy... Just run enlightenment on
a Pc at work - show your boss's - tell them its the same cost as the
grey beveled fvwm, and they'll buy the E one. This is not to sayE is
the way everyone wants it, but the perception that it is not business
like is not quite accurate.

->  and they would not really need the theme-ability. They could use a 
->  nice (serious)  desktop, though..  I actually have written my first 
->  (and last) Enlightenment theme based on gtk/GNOME's current motif-ish 
->  look. Just in case. :)		

hahaehehehe.. and guess what.. you get to throw it all away.. 0.14 has
been advertised as "VERY DIFFERENT" - It will not be compatible with
previous config files, themes etc. Sorry about that... :(

->  	Last thing, I am insane about the current look of gtk (and GNOME). I 
->  have always liked the motif look. I guess qt and gtk prove that lots 

And I suppose thats why you have your views. I personally hate motif and
next looks. That is a big reason for a theme crusade. I know I'm not
alone. I know dozens of people who hate the motif/grey beveled look like
they hate their arms being ripped off. You like it, I hate it. All the
more reason to let the user decide. If I made you eat rancid sardines
every day just because I liked them, that wouldn't be fair - and on the
same note, I should not be forced to use a boring grey beveled gui all
day. I'm just trying to get a picture across here, so don't take it
personaly.

->  of other people feel the same. The mouse-over highlighting used to 
->  bother me ( gimp 0.60 anyone?), but it has really grown on me, and I 
->  really miss it when it is not there. Not only that, but is is the 
->  sharpest of the motif-ish toolkits. When I have run a kde app (eg 
->  kedit), it looks so slick sitting there with the browserish 
->  interface, all serious and complete looking. Then, I click the (very 
->  pretty) "Open" button and I am presented with one of the ugliest file 
->  dialogs in the world. And the illusion is shattered. Or when writing 
->  a little script with kedit (sue me, I like Wordpad wannabes) and you 
->  write enough lines to kick on the right scrollbar, poof, that 
->  hideous, fat little bar with those chunky triangles makes me run for 
->  an Xterm and joe. Or the drop-down listboxs in motif. I could go on, 
->  but what I mean is gtk is one of the cleanest, sharpest (literally) 
->  toolkits around. Even the little black lines around the default 
->  selection are neat and unobtrusive. So in the pro-themers rush to 
->  make gtk/GNOME look like a Boris Vallejo painting or H.R. Geiger's 
->  garage sale, can I assume that I can flip a switch (or a #define 
->  somewhere) and get the same ol' gtk I know and love?

Not a #define.. its a button in the theme selector. You will not lose
your look and feel. Those who want something else merely gain what they
desire. Themes are installed by people. they download - dump in a theme
dir, select the theme - presto everything changes. If they don't like
it, they can select the DEFAULT again, or try another theme, or edit
the bits they don't like (ie. make the font a bit bigger - use times
instead of helvetica etc.)

->  Just my $0.02US
->  
->  M.Watson redline at pdq dot net
->  
->  

-- 
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