Re: Food for thought: Why (and how) should KDE and Gnome unite?

[George Russell <george russell clara net>]

On Tue, 22 Dec 1998, Adam Rotaru wrote:
>Hi,
>
>  KDE and Gnome already contributed a lot to the acceptance of Linux in
>the desktop market. And this is just the beginning! But as someone said 
>'having two GUI's for an OS is too much'.  Well, I would say, more
>precisely 'having two proposed GUI application standards for an OS is too
>much'.

I would disagree.  This is Unix.  There are more than two OS's, let alone two 
proposed GUI standards. (and more than one GUI). which are / have been / will
be proposed as being Graphical Unix.  

ie KDE, GNOME, GNUSTEP, CDE, plus a hetereogenous mixture of apps and toolkits.
They are only standards if you follow them.  Unix is prone to splits and
software rivalry.  
(X vs Berlin vs other old & defunct GUI's)
(Linux vs *BSD vs Unix tm vs SysV/BSD derived proprietary Unix)
(Qt/KDE, GTK/Gnome, WINGS/GnuStep, Tk, Xforms, Motif/CDE, etc)

In short, users and developers choose what they want.  Having one is too few. 
If one choice fits all, use Windows / Mac / OS2.  

>  Open-source movement contributes to having more choice.
>  At first sight, the availability of Gnome and KDE seems like a great choice,
>which is good for the users. But it's not exactly like that. They should
>merge, or eventually one will win. Read more.

Sorry.  Open Source code never dies.
<personal bigotry>
If it does, may some of Unix'es cruftier pieces of code like vi go first.
</personal bigotry>

>  One of the positive contributions of Open-source models is the enhanced
>choice users have. Choice is when your processor does not determine/limit
>your operating system you use, when your OS of choice does not
>determine/limit the GUI you use, and your GUI does not determine/limit
>the applications you use.  The more separate levels are things broken down
>into (basic OS, basic apps, GUI, windowmanager, desktop environment, GUI
>applications), and the more viable combinations exists between levels, the
>more choice is for the user, which is a _good_ thing.

Agreed.

>  KDE vs. Gnome.
>  First, we have to note that both of this animals will work with _any_ X
>application, so it's not like Win vs. Mac. But apps take advantage of the
>desktopping functions only if they are written for that environment.

Or modifed to the extent needed.  For open source, no problem. For non open
source, they'll follow CDE and only limitedly integrate into Free desktops, at
least until CDE dies for good (never, or not soon)

>  Having _both_ Gnome and KDE and using the same (X) apps with both is
>possible, but it's not what we'd like in the long run.

Its what we have done for years, which gives great inertia to that idea.

>  For choice, there must be a common standard.
>  Different products/entities to be interchangable, there must be some
>common standard somewhere. The fact that pretty much every web
>browser/server combination works, is possible because there is a well
>defined (relatively simple) standard. HTTP.  The fact that X applications
>run on different X platforms is possible because of the X protocol
>standard. 
>  But Gnome and KDE lacks any such common ground. As a matter of fact,
>they differ greatly exectly in what should be the common ground:

They are more limited in this regard as they run on top of X, and so follow its
standards and their own.

>  The widgets.
>  KDE and Gnome are not interchangable, because they disagree on the
>widget set they use.  It's perfectly OK to have a choice regarding window
>managers, for ex., if they adhere to the same standards. But because KDE
>and Gnome are different built on different widgets, there is no 
>common grounds for applications! So afterall, Gnome and KDE are not
>interchangable options -- although the functions they provide are very
>similar.

Interchanging KDE/GNOME should involve more than the widget set.  Help in html
format in a common directory shared across GNOME/KDE, acessed from menu item on
panel in both or F1 (help from menu bar, right most entry)in any KDE/GNOME app.
Configurable keysettings so that consistency can be had, if so wished. 
Similar terminology used (eg cancel  / abort), similar handling of cut n paste,
drag n drop, and detection of the other desktop being available so that a GNOME
app can insert itself into KDE's menu on the panel and vice versa.

In short, common behaviour before common look or codebase.

>  WHY they should merge.
>  I don't want to go in predictions, that it seems pretty logical, that
>in the long run
>  - the community will choose one, and the other will slowly fade out
>     due to lack of applications

Old opensource apps abound.  The community has never chosen uniformly on the
use of anything so I doubt it will happen here.

 >  - step-by-step they converge, and reduce differences

Unlikely, due to langauge wars, design differences, idealism vs pragmatism.  A
core of common features and interoperability may emerge, but this will be a
subset at best.

>  - they merge

After the past year, I doubt this will happen.

>  HOW they could merge.
>  That's a tough question. Technically, I see a number of possibilities:
> 1) since both are GPLed, an gorup can take both, and merge them. But it's
>     very likely that such a group would consist of individuals who are
>     already involved with one of the projects.

More likely, they can borrow code from each other without merging.

>>2) gradually, more and more components become common (like font handling, 
>     screen savers, themes, internalization, etc.), and both projects
>     focus on their strenghts.

This will result in a common subset of features.  Ideas will be tried on one or
other first, and used by the other if liked well enough.  The common core will
lag behind the edge of development.   Some things will not be used in both, but
only in one.

> 3) prominant leaders from the two communities agree to converge and
>     merge (not very likely).

Agreed

> 4) on of the projects gives up and acknowledges the other (extremly
>     unlikely, having in mind their considerable effort devoted)
>  I see (2) as the most probable, (3) the less coslty.

It is entirely possible that both will remain seperate, inter operating no more
than any other X11 apps using the same toolkits would.

>  Qt vs GTK+
>  The main problem, which can't be overcome by 'gradual convergence', is
>the widget set. Which is better? Qt is supposedly better supported, now
>also free (but not GPLed, which is still perceived as a problem), while
>GTK+ is GPLed.  In nay case, changing the underlying widget set
>means a lof of recoding.

Too much to be practical?  Probably.  Besides, people will choose one they like
more, and stick with it ( and not use the other)

>  Balance.
>  KDE and Gnome seems to be quite balanced in terms of their
>goals and functionality.  They aim at the same goals. The set of common
>features in much larger than the differences. They have about roughly
>support. That renders 'natural software selection' more difficult.

Just means the competition will be more intense and no decisive winner will
arise at any point soon. Will speed innovation and prevent stagnation ala CDE.

>  Recently, many users expressed their view that KDE and Gnome should
>merge (lus Linus, but he reportedly is not a GUI user). But users
>expressing views, without action, will not change things.
>So we need actions?
>  
>  What next?

Define areas of common functionality ie help systems, menu structure,
shortcut keys, rc file formats, WM hints, colour schemes, screensavers,
locations for wallpaper, sounds, protocols for DND, CutnPaste, Session
management,Data embedding, application supplied icons, a central application
startup menu ( nested folders of links, probably) and standardise on them.  Then
implement the standards.  Problem solved :-)

Could be time to form a group to consider this and come up with specifications.
Like the LSB but limited to GUI interface standards for linux ( a super or a
subset of KDE/GNOME standards as necessary)

George Russell
(happy christmas)
--
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, 
One Ring to bring them all and in the Darkness bind them,
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows lie.
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