Re: gnome-i18n digest, Vol 1 #958 - 12 msgs

From: Sergey Oudaltsov clients ie
To: gnome-i18n gnome org
Subject: Re: gnome-i18n digest, Vol 1 #958 - 12 msgs
Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 08:54:00 +0000
Квотироние gnome-i18n-request@gnome.org:

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>    1. seahorse 5th toe (Jacob Perkins)
>    2. Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sander=20Vesik?=)
>    3. Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sander=20Vesik?=)
>    4. Re: seahorse 5th toe (Christian Rose)
>    5. Re: Hebrew is finally a supported language! (Christian Rose)
>    6. string changes landed (Seth Nickell)
>    7. GNOME 2.2 Translation Statistics and Rankings (Christian Rose)
>    8. Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME (Bernd Groh)
>    9. Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sander=20Vesik?=)
>   10. Re: GNOME 2.2 Translation Statistics and Rankings
> (=?iso-8859-1?q?Sander=20Vesik?=)
>   11. Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME (Malcolm
> Tredinnick)
>   12. Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME (Malcolm
> Tredinnick)
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 11:47:37 -0600 (CST)
> Subject: seahorse 5th toe
> From: "Jacob Perkins" <jap1@users.sourceforge.net>
> To: <gnome-i18n@gnome.org>
> 
> Seahorse is part of the 5th Toe now, so maybe it should be moved to the
> 5th toe status page.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 17:59:43 +0000 (GMT)
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sander=20Vesik?= <sander_traveling@yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> To: Bernd Groh <bgroh@redhat.com>,
> 	Paisa Seeluangsawat <paisa@Colorado.EDU>
> Cc: gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> 
>  --- Bernd Groh <bgroh@redhat.com> wrote: 
> > Paisa,
> > 
> > >Having an internationalized, easy-to-use, semi WYSIWYG ?ML editor
> > >might help.  Something based on Bluefish might work?
> > >
> > 
> > Is there anything based on Bluefish that does SGML, in particular SGML 
> > DocBook?
> > If yes, PLEASE let me know!!
> > 
> > >Well, I've never translated a document, so I might be wrong.
> > >
> > 
> > I did, and I do hope that I'm just not up to date with the newest 
> > technology.
> > If anyone knows about any semi-WYSIWYG SGML-editor, please, please, with 
> > sugar on top, tell me all about it! :-)
> > 
> 
> <plug type="shameless">OpenOffice.org can do this</plug>. I can't say it
> entirely ready in its docbook support, and doesn't quite round-trip - 
> and this specific use might dig out more problem areas - but it would
> allow you to take a docbook document, trnalste it in a normal wysiwyg 
> environment and save back in largely the same structure. erm.. well, and 
> probably file some bugs.
> 
> > Cheers,
> > Bernd
> > 
> > -- 
> > Dr. Bernd R. Groh <bgroh@redhat.com>
> > Red Hat Asia-Pacific
> > Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer
> > 
> > "Everything we know is an illusion,
> >  nothing we know is real,
> >  nothing real we can know,
> >  illusion is what we call reality."
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > gnome-i18n mailing list
> > gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> > http://mail.gnome.org/mailman/listinfo/gnome-i18n 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 18:34:42 +0000 (GMT)
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sander=20Vesik?= <sander_traveling@yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> To: Malcolm Tredinnick <malcolm@commsecure.com.au>,
> 	Simos Xenitellis <simos74@gmx.net>
> Cc: GNOME Documentation List <gnome-doc-list@gnome.org>,
> 	gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> 
>  --- Malcolm Tredinnick <malcolm@commsecure.com.au> wrote: 
> 
> [snip]
> 
> 
> > I have code for some of the following (mostly extracting the strings for
> > translation and constructing something that is pretty close to a valid
> > .po file). If people cannot shoot too many holes in my method I will
> > continue down this path, although that does not help Simos with his
> > immediate problem of translating _now_.
> > 
> 
> for now, its largely on teh level of using xemacs/psgml or similar.
> 
> > Probably I should point out that the main problem I see in Simos'
> > approach is that you will get a lost of unnecessary stuff in the .po
> > file, which looks like it will interfere with smooth translations. Also,
> > I could not see how some of the "issues to be resolved" were addresses
> > by that code (to be fair, the authors mentioned at the time that it was
> > a prototype of an idea).
> > 
> > Malcolm
> > 
> > -- 
> > He who laughs last thinks slowest.
> > > A documentation translator -- design document
> > ==============================================
> > ($Date$)
> > 
> > GOAL:
> > ------
> > Much GNOME documentation exists in the form of DocBook-SGML, DocBook-XML
> > and (X)HTML documents. Translators are most comfortable working with GNU
> > gettext-style po files. The aim of this program is to provide an efficient
> > means of converting documentation source into po files and then merging
> the
> > resulting translations back into a document for distribution.
> > 
> > CONSIDERATIONS:
> > ----------------
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > DESIGN IDEAS:
> > --------------
> > The are two halves to this program. The first part is extracting all of
> the
> > translatable strings into the po files, ready for translation. The second
> part
> > is creating translated documents from the po files at build time.
> > 
> > (1) Extracting the strings
> > 
> > 	When run, the program is given a list of tags which are considered
> > 	"block elements" (by analogy with the concept in HTML). These tags are
> > 	the ones which do not have significant bearing on the ability of their
> > 	contents to be translated. So they are dropped in the conversion to po
> > 	format. By way of example, in HTML we would consider the following tags
> > 	to be amongst those which are block elements: p, h1, h2, br, hr, table,
> > 	and so on.
> > 
> 
> A big problem with doing this on block level approach is that you do not get
> 
> any amount of reuse. So having translated <menuchoice>
> <guimenu>File</guimenu>
> <guimenuitem>Open</guimenuitem></menuchoice> once doesn't help you at all to
> get somewhere with the next (possibly hundreds) of occurences. There are a
> lot of different occurences of <guimenu>, <guilabel>, <guimenuitem> and 
> <guibutton> with alrgely the same contents. This may have to be a separate
> pretranslation step though.
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > 	[NOTE: Typically, a chunk for translation will be a paragraph. This
> > 	seems like a sensible division, since it may lead to a better
> > 	translation to reorganise the sentence structure, but keeping the
> > 	paragraph structure the same should not be too much of a burden, from
> > 	my limited experience of other languages.]
> > 
> > 	In a normal program internationalisation effort, all strings from all
> > 	files are put into a single po file for each language. However, when
> > 	translating documentation, this approach does not seem efficient.
> > 	Firstly, it is not unreasonable to expect that only a fraction of the
> > 	documentation in any package will be initially translated. Secondly,
> > 	the po files will be much larger than for all but the largest programs,
> > 	since user and developer documentation is often quite lengthy. Typical
> > 	use of this program will therefore place the po files for each document
> > 	in their own directory (probably under the document's source directory,
> > 	or its immediate parent).
> > 	
> > 	[NOTE: It has also been floated that, since the source is usually
> > 	under a C/ directory, alternative translations can go in directories
> > 	labelled by their locale name -- so es/, no/, and so forth. The files
> > 	in these directory would still be .po format files so that translators
> > 	can use their current familiar techniques.]
> > 
> 
> This is by now the standard - all localised docs are in their own
> subdirectories
> 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 4
> Subject: Re: seahorse 5th toe
> From: Christian Rose <menthos@menthos.com>
> To: Jacob Perkins <jap1@users.sourceforge.net>
> Cc: gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> Date: 30 Jan 2003 22:55:21 +0100
> 
> tor 2003-01-30 klockan 18.47 skrev Jacob Perkins:
> > Seahorse is part of the 5th Toe now, so maybe it should be moved to the
> > 5th toe status page.
> 
> Done now. :)
> 
> 
> Christian
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 5
> Subject: Re: Hebrew is finally a supported language!
> From: Christian Rose <menthos@menthos.com>
> To: "Gil 'Dolfin' Osher" <dolfin@rpg.org.il>
> Cc: gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> Date: 30 Jan 2003 23:00:17 +0100
> 
> tor 2003-01-30 klockan 17.04 skrev Gil 'Dolfin' Osher:
> > We just completed 81% of the translation, which makes Hebrew a supported 
> > language for Gnome-2.2!
> 
> Excellent work! :-)
> I guess your next goal is 100%? Go Go Go... :-)
> 
> 
> > Can someone pleade update this info here: http://www.gnome.org/i18n/
> > and in all the other proper places?
> 
> That page is for users and reflects the status for the current stable
> release. As 2.2 isn't released yet, that means that page still reflects
> (and should reflect) 2.0 status. The page should be updated when 2.2 is
> released.
> 
> 
> Christian
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 6
> Subject: string changes landed
> From: Seth Nickell <snickell@stanford.edu>
> To: gnome-i18n@gnome.org, release-team@gnome.org
> Date: 30 Jan 2003 14:43:48 -0800
> 
> String changes to gnome-themes landed. Once again, apologies for this.
> 
> -Seth
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 7
> Subject: GNOME 2.2 Translation Statistics and Rankings
> From: Christian Rose <menthos@menthos.com>
> To: gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> Cc: release-team@gnome.org, desktop-devel-list@gnome.org
> Date: 31 Jan 2003 00:20:30 +0100
> 
> Here are the new translation statistics for this week. The numbers
> (percentage of translated messages) are as always taken from our 2.1
> core translation status page
> (http://developer.gnome.org/projects/gtp/status/gnome-2.1-core/). The
> level of support is using the http://www.gnome.org/i18n/ definitions of
> support, and is the level of support the languages would be stamped with
> if GNOME 2.2 was released right now. Enjoy!
> 
> ** Please note that the numbers are from earlier today, and thus the
> recent string additions in gnome-themes aren't accounted for. **
> 
> 
> 						Last
> 						week's		Difference
> Ranking Lang.   Percent Level of support	ranking		in ranking
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 1	cs	100.00	Supported		4		+3
> 1	da	100.00	Supported		4		+3
> 1	de	100.00	Supported		4		+3
> 1	es	100.00	Supported		4		+3
> 1	fi	100.00	Supported		16		+15
> 1	lv	100.00	Supported		1		
> 1	nl	100.00	Supported		1		
> 1	pt_BR	100.00	Supported		11		+10
> 1	sl	100.00	Supported		10		+9
> 1	sv	100.00	Supported		1		
> 11	mn	99.98	Supported		15		+4
> 12	no	99.83	Supported		12		
> 13	el	99.74	Supported		9		-4
> 14	sk	99.68	Supported		8		-6
> 15	ko	97.48	Supported		21		+6
> 16	vi	97.16	Supported		13		-3
> 17	fr	97.15	Supported		17		
> 18	ca	96.88	Supported		14		-4
> 19	zh_CN	95.86	Supported		24		+5
> 20	pl	95.15	Supported		19		-1
> 21	ru	94.49	Supported		22		+1
> 22	bg	93.58	Supported		23		+1
> 23	zh_TW	91.86	Supported		20		-3
> 24	ms	91.50	Supported		18		-6
> 25	uk	90.71	Supported		27		+2
> 26	ro	86.22	Supported		25		-1
> 27	hu	84.74	Supported		26		-1
> 28	ja	82.61	Supported		30		+2
> 29	pt	82.27	Supported		28		-1
> 30	he	81.57	Supported		31		+1
> 31	it	80.98	Supported		33		+2
> 32	be	74.98	Partially supported	29		-3
> 33	tr	71.14	Partially supported	32		-1
> 34	et	59.62	Partially supported	34		
> 35	gl	46.91	Unsupported		35		
> 36	az	40.79	Unsupported		36		
> 37	am	39.23	Unsupported		37		
> 38	hi	37.92	Unsupported		38		
> 39	sq	37.73	Unsupported		46		+7
> 40	mk	36.76	Unsupported		39		-1
> 41	ar	35.96	Unsupported		40		-1
> 42	wa	32.95	Unsupported		41		-1
> 43	lt	32.28	Unsupported		42		-1
> 44	eu	30.15	Unsupported		43		-1
> 45	nn	27.46	Unsupported		44		-1
> 46	ta	26.31	Unsupported		45		-1
> 47	th	5.72	Unsupported		53		+6
> 48	fa	4.31	Unsupported		47		-1
> 49	ga	3.63	Unsupported		48		-1
> 50	is	3.29	Unsupported		--		+10
> 51	sp	2.38	Unsupported		49		-2
> 51	sr	2.38	Unsupported		50		-1
> 53	bs	2.31	Unsupported		51		-2
> 54	en_GB	1.48	Unsupported		52		-2
> 55	bn	0.61	Unsupported		54		-1
> 56	hr	0.47	Unsupported		55		-1
> 57	ia	0.32	Unsupported		56		-1
> 58	en@ipa  0.29	  Unsupported             57              -1
> 59	cy	0.20	Unsupported		58		-1
> 60	es_ES	0.01	Unsupported		59		-1
> 
> We have one new language this week, Icelandic (is), which enters at the
> 50th place. We now have 31 supported languages this week, whereas we had
> only 27 last week. Out of those, no less than 10 are at exactly 100% (we
> only had 3 fully complete translations last week). We have 3 partially
> supported languages, (50%<x<80%), whereas we had 7 of those last week.
> The reduction here is most likely due to the increase of supported
> languages.
> 
> Let's keep this thing going...
> 
> Christian
> 
> 
> PS. If anyone wonders about language codes, you'll find them all
> explained on http://lcweb.loc.gov/standards/iso639-2/englangn.html. DS.
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 8
> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 09:26:47 +0100
> From: Bernd Groh <bgroh@redhat.com>
> To: Sander Vesik <sander_traveling@yahoo.co.uk>
> Cc: Paisa Seeluangsawat <paisa@Colorado.EDU>, gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> 
> Sander,
> 
> ><plug type="shameless">OpenOffice.org can do this</plug>. I can't say it
> >entirely ready in its docbook support, and doesn't quite round-trip - 
> >and this specific use might dig out more problem areas - but it would
> >allow you to take a docbook document, trnalste it in a normal wysiwyg 
> >environment and save back in largely the same structure. erm.. well, and 
> >probably file some bugs.
> >
> 
> Are you looking for testers? *l*
> 
> Well, when I get around to it, I will have a closer look and see just 
> how many erm... unintended features there really are. :-)
> 
> Cheers,
> Bernd
> 
> -- 
> Dr. Bernd R. Groh <bgroh@redhat.com>
> Red Hat Asia-Pacific
> Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer
> 
> "Everything we know is an illusion,
>  nothing we know is real,
>  nothing real we can know,
>  illusion is what we call reality."
> 
> 
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 9
> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:32:16 +0000 (GMT)
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sander=20Vesik?= <sander_traveling@yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> To: Bernd Groh <bgroh@redhat.com>
> Cc: gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> 
>  --- Bernd Groh <bgroh@redhat.com> wrote: > Sander,
> > 
> > ><plug type="shameless">OpenOffice.org can do this</plug>. I can't say it
> > >entirely ready in its docbook support, and doesn't quite round-trip - 
> > >and this specific use might dig out more problem areas - but it would
> > >allow you to take a docbook document, trnalste it in a normal wysiwyg 
> > >environment and save back in largely the same structure. erm.. well, and 
> > >probably file some bugs.
> > >
> > 
> > Are you looking for testers? *l*
> > 
> 
> No, not testers, more like (patient) users 8-)
> 
> > Well, when I get around to it, I will have a closer look and see just 
> > how many erm... unintended features there really are. :-)
> > 
> > Cheers,
> > Bernd
> > 
> > -- 
> > Dr. Bernd R. Groh <bgroh@redhat.com>
> > Red Hat Asia-Pacific
> > Disclaimer: http://apac.redhat.com/disclaimer
> > 
> > "Everything we know is an illusion,
> >  nothing we know is real,
> >  nothing real we can know,
> >  illusion is what we call reality."
> > 
> >  
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 10
> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2003 23:37:02 +0000 (GMT)
> From: =?iso-8859-1?q?Sander=20Vesik?= <sander_traveling@yahoo.co.uk>
> Subject: Re: GNOME 2.2 Translation Statistics and Rankings
> To: Christian Rose <menthos@menthos.com>, gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> Cc: desktop-devel-list@gnome.org
> 
>  --- Christian Rose <menthos@menthos.com> wrote: 
> > Here are the new translation statistics for this week. The numbers
> > (percentage of translated messages) are as always taken from our 2.1
> > core translation status page
> 
> [SNIP]
> 
> > 
> > ** Please note that the numbers are from earlier today, and thus the
> > recent string additions in gnome-themes aren't accounted for. **
> > 
> > 
> > 						Last
> > 						week's		Difference
> > Ranking Lang.   Percent Level of support	ranking		in ranking
> >
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > 1	cs	100.00	Supported		4		+3
> > 1	da	100.00	Supported		4		+3
> > 1	de	100.00	Supported		4		+3
> > 1	es	100.00	Supported		4		+3
> > 1	fi	100.00	Supported		16		+15
> > 1	lv	100.00	Supported		1		
> > 1	nl	100.00	Supported		1		
> > 1	pt_BR	100.00	Supported		11		+10
> > 1	sl	100.00	Supported		10		+9
> > 1	sv	100.00	Supported		1		
> > 11	mn	99.98	Supported		15		+4
> > 12	no	99.83	Supported		12		
> 
> 
> Ermmm... How about instead of jumping from raninkg of 1 to ranking of 11
> (and
> probably soon of 20 or larger) adjust the first non-ranked-first entry to be
> ranked
> second (2) and follong from there ?
> 
> > 
> > Let's keep this thing going...
> > 
> > Christian
> > 
> 
> 
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Everything you'll ever need on one web page
> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts
> http://uk.my.yahoo.com
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 11
> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:04:28 +1100
> From: Malcolm Tredinnick <malcolm@commsecure.com.au>
> To: GNOME Documentation List <gnome-doc-list@gnome.org>,
> 	gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> 
> Thanks for the feedback, Sander. Some additional comments inline.
> 
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 06:34:42PM +0000, Sander Vesik wrote:
> >  --- Malcolm Tredinnick <malcolm@commsecure.com.au> wrote: 
> [...]
> > > (1) Extracting the strings
> > > 
> > > 	When run, the program is given a list of tags which are considered
> > > 	"block elements" (by analogy with the concept in HTML). These tags are
> > > 	the ones which do not have significant bearing on the ability of their
> > > 	contents to be translated. So they are dropped in the conversion to po
> > > 	format. By way of example, in HTML we would consider the following tags
> > > 	to be amongst those which are block elements: p, h1, h2, br, hr, table,
> > > 	and so on.
> > > 
> > 
> > A big problem with doing this on block level approach is that you do not
> get 
> > any amount of reuse. So having translated <menuchoice>
> <guimenu>File</guimenu>
> > <guimenuitem>Open</guimenuitem></menuchoice> once doesn't help you at all
> to
> > get somewhere with the next (possibly hundreds) of occurences. There are a
> > lot of different occurences of <guimenu>, <guilabel>, <guimenuitem> and 
> > <guibutton> with alrgely the same contents. This may have to be a separate
> > pretranslation step though.
> 
> I see what you are saying here. I maybe need to add a way to specify
> that certain tags encapsulate "constant" words of phrases that need only
> be translated once. The drawback with that is that a translator still
> needs to translate all the surrounding text and so either he translates
> the menu item each time or we need to have a way of representing that an
> already translated unit goes there. Because the position of the menu
> item in the sentence -- or even the paragraph -- will move about, the
> original text, or a proxy representative, needs to remain in the msgstr.
> 
> I'll think about this one.
> 
> [..]
> > > 	[NOTE: It has also been floated that, since the source is usually
> > > 	under a C/ directory, alternative translations can go in directories
> > > 	labelled by their locale name -- so es/, no/, and so forth. The files
> > > 	in these directory would still be .po format files so that translators
> > > 	can use their current familiar techniques.]
> > > 
> > 
> > This is by now the standard - all localised docs are in their own
> > subdirectories
> 
> The final documents, yes. I am thinking out loud about the po files
> which are used to generate the translated documents. But I think I
> will use directories named after the locale, since it's not too hard to
> make the build process only package the final document.
> 
> Malcolm
> 
> -- 
> Save the whales. Collect the whole set.
> 
> --__--__--
> 
> Message: 12
> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 2003 11:14:29 +1100
> From: Malcolm Tredinnick <malcolm@commsecure.com.au>
> To: gnome-i18n@gnome.org
> Subject: Re: About translating documents (.xml/.sgml) in GNOME
> 
> On Thu, Jan 30, 2003 at 10:03:04AM +0000, Telsa Gwynne wrote:
> > On Wed, Jan 29, 2003 at 10:51:20PM -0700 or thereabouts, Paisa
> Seeluangsawat wrote:
> > > 
> > > I agree with Malcolm.  The biggest hassle is tracking changes in the
> > > master doc.  Two approaches that might help are,
> > > 
> > >   - Have a smart diff tool that can pinpoint a small change in a
> > >     source paragraph.
> > 
> > I haven't used it, but might wdiff fit the bill for this part?
> > It's aimed more at comparing words, regardless of where the new
> > lines start, than at comparing lines. 
> 
> It can sort of be done with wdiff, although some squinting is then
> required to see how that applies to the translation.
> 
> For those with Java installed, Norm Walsh has a tool for marking up
> changes between Docbook documents. After typesetting them with the
> "changebars.xsl" stylesheet, you can get a garishly coloured final
> document showing what has changed. It is not too much extra work to use
> a different stylesheet to extract the changes for other usage.
> 
> However, this has wandered a bit from the idea of making it not only
> easy to attract changes, but also familiar for translators to work with.
> I think the latter point must be at least partially valid, since it was
> also the driving point behind intltool and, as a result, we have all
> sorts of user-visible strings now being translated without a second
> thought. It is this portion that I was requesting feedback on from the
> various translation experts.
> 
> Malcolm
> 
> -- 
> A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.
> 
> 
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