Re: Minutes of Gnome 2 release team meeting (late): 2002-05-17

[James Henstridge <james daa com au>]

Daniel Veillard wrote:

> On Tue, May 28, 2002 at 03:32:53PM +0800, James Henstridge wrote:
>  
>
> > Jens Finke wrote:
> >    
> >
> > > On 28 May 2002, Mikael Hallendal wrote:
> > >      
> > >
> > > > Heh, if all of this has to be done something is wrong (you also have to care
> > > > about the fact that the user might very well have the xmlcatalog file in
> > > > his $HOME). So just checking /etc/xml/catalog will not be enough.
> > > >        
>
>  First, sure one can ask libxslt/libxml2 to not fetch anything other the net,
> the xsltproc command has an option to disable net access, it's simply based
> on providing your own resolution routine for external entities fetching,
> it's a matter of cut'n pasting 50 lines from xsltproc.c . I'm pretty sure
> I indcated this already to the people working on Yelp.
>
>  
>
> > In my opinion, if a program says "please include the contents of the 
> > stylesheet available at http://...";, I would expect it to do go out onto 
> > the internet to fetch it.  The XML catalog is simply a cache for XML 
> >    
>
>  Depends, that's the point of catalogs, sometimes you really don't
> want this to happen, while maintaining your data portable. Having 
>   file:///usr/local/share/docbook/xsl/html/docbook.xsl
> references in your data is a garanteed way to:
>    1/ maintainance nightmares (oh the stylesheets are located/named
>       differently on your system ... yes some people use filesystem
>       where file:///usr/local/ ... won't work).
>    2/ guaranteed flow of bug report on the long term, the fact that
>       XML catalogs are not well deployed is a fact, but it will change
>
> thing about the libfoo.so.12.4.5 resolution, guess what, to avoid crazyness
> they are using a catalog, same problem, you just don't want to face this kind
> of maintainance on the long term.
Daniel, I am not trying to be confrontational about this.  I was trying 
to point out that:

  1. if you make use of http:// urls for resources, you shouldn't be
     surprised if http requests are made on systems that don't have a
     correctly setup catalog.
  2. if you use file:// urls, then this problem goes away, but you run
     into the problem that your documents loose their system
     independence, which is the reason why http:// identifiers were
     being used for the resources in the first place.
  3. having a correctly configured catalog solves both the system
     independence and no network access requirements quite elegantly.

(I probably didn't make myself clear enough).  I think the best solution 
is to require a working catalog (as we do now).  It shouldn't be 
difficult to add the checks to make sure that this is so.  The commands 
Malcolm posted could easily be converted to autoconf checks (make them 
check all the catalogs in XML_CATALOG_FILES too, if that var is set), 
and error out if the files can't be found.  The error message could even 
point people at the simple to install docbook packages provided by the 
scrollkeeper guys.

If having the stylesheets installed is considered to be a requirement 
for yelp, then yelp's configure script should be erroring out if they 
are missing.  At the moment, it sounds like many people are building and 
installing yelp without an error, but missing the required docbook files.

>  
>
> > resources such as DTDs and stylesheets, so that they don't need to be 
> > downloaded.  If you want to make sure that you only access local files 
> > when processing a document, then don't use http:// urls for the 
> > resources you use (use file:// ones instead).  You lose the system 
> >    
>
>  Okay, you give the advice, you also promise to handle the long term
> maintainance of that, okay ?
That is a solution to the problem Mikael brought up (making sure that we 
don't do any network access), but I also pointed out that this has the 
drawback of losing system independence.  Maybe I should have made it 
more clear that I don't see this as a good tradeoff.

>  
>
> > independence by using local paths, but you know it won't make a network 
> > request for the file.
> >    
>
>  Wrong way to ensure this !!! Really.
yes.

>  
>
> > Maybe it would be nice if libxml could dynamically build a cache of such 
> > resources (download files to somewhere and add pointers to a per user 
> > catalog file for them).  That would be the other way around the slowdown 
> > on broken systems (so that it would only be slow once).
> >    
>
>  No, that's a policy, I won't implement such a policy in the library,
> but apps should feel free to do so if they can.
This might be worth investigating for yelp (in the post 2.0 timeframe). 
There is always the possibility that some docs that are registered with 
scrollkeeper will reference some resource we don't have (maybe some kde 
documentation?).  Caching these would improve the speed of loading those 
documents and from what you said above, libxml2 already provides the 
hooks necessary to do this.

James.

--
Email: james daa com au              | Linux.conf.au 2003 Call for Papers out
WWW:   http://www.daa.com.au/~james/ |   http://conf.linux.org.au/cfp.html




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