Re: Random thought...

[Tom Vogt <tom lemuria org>]

Dan Effugas Kaminsky <effugas@best.com> wrote:
> >who ever said that? I remember that a few people - me among them - argued
> >that compatibility to other ui isn't a holy cow and we should be guided by
> >our own things more than by that. but more than that? can you point me to
> >the mail where someone said that?
> 
> Yeah.  I think it was Sun who said nearly those exact words--"Compatibility
> with other HCI standards is too stupid an argument to discuss".  I'll
> private email you the quote if you don't believe me--such hyperbole I
> wouldn't make up.

please do. not because I don't believe you, but because I'd like to see the
context and which that sentence was said.


> Compatibility with other UI isn't a holy cow, but it ain't a non-issue.  The
> Lawyers Use Wordperfect discussion on Slashdot brought up examples of how
> lawyers have stuck with Wordperfect because that's what they're used to, and
> how there are many offices which have a specific word processing program for
> the specific reason that they're keystroke compatible with word processors
> from the SEVENTIES.
> 
> Maybe we can make something better.  No--we probably CAN make something
> better.  But if we don't take into account that there are people who are
> used to what they have now, and just want to get rid of the crashes, bugs,
> and information hiding interfaces, we're gonna lose this battle.

well, as far as I can see, this is one of the reasons for the whole
customization thing. see, one of the things I didn't like about kde is that
it brought it's own wm thingy. I have hunted high and low for a wm that I
like, trying everything from icewm to fvwm2 to some exotics, before I found
afterstep and loved it from the start. everything that even dares to SUGGEST
I switch my wm has a bad mark from the beginning.

see what I'm aiming at? if someone wants to use the BrainDead(tm)
windowmanager, he damn should be able to. and if someone wants to have his
desktop resemble the mac interface he's used to, it should be possible.
maybe not 100% but enough to have that person feel at home. so if someone
wants to have wordperfect keybindings, there should be something we can
offer him.


> >> We have an audience.  We have *users*.  Pragmatism, man.  That's *why*
> Linux
> >> is growing.  Ignore and diez!
> >
> >that's exactly what we're doing. going our way, see. that's another reason
> >why Linux is growing. :)
> 
> Huh?  You lost me.

pragmatism is one thing why Linux is big. but it's not the only one.



> >> This isn't the same as having three buttons.  Think about what would
> happen
> >> in a game if you attempt to emulate the middle button like this...won't
> >> work.
> >
> >actually - it would. the app/game would never see the difference.
> 
> Nope...true three button commands let you do things like "if all three
> buttons are hit simultaneously, do X".  You can't emulate that with 2
> buttons.  Best example I can think of--lets say you have shoot bound to
> Mouse1, jump bound to Mouse2, and magic bound to Mouse3.  What happens when
> you get rid of the 3rd middle button and attempt to emulate by
> right-then-left clicking?  Do you jump and shoot?  Or do you cast magic?

ok, got it now. you're right, it's not quite the same. emulation works by
setting some arbitrary (very short, some ms) time. if during that time both
buttons are down, a middle-button-click is sent to the app, otherwise a
single button one. I don't know if it looks for the state of the buttons
before.

ok, it wasn't designed for games. it works good in apps, because you usually
don't have to press several mouse buttons simultaneously.



> >as far as I remember, nobody talked about taking away the scrollbars. can
> >you find the mail where somebody said that? not trying to be aggressive or
> >anything, but I've got the impression you're working so hard on the uisg
> >that you don't read all mails carefully anymore.
> 
> I was attempting to define what "critical functionality" meant.  See, this
> entire time I'm splitting one major hair--I have no problem with 3rd or 4th
> or 100th button functionality, as long as it's not critical to the
> interface.  But, I had a little problem.  I had never stated a change that
> would make a non-critical interface element(middle button = scroll) a
> critical one(middle button = only easy way to scroll).  So I did.

but the point is that nobody wanted to do this. :)

it's an additional feature.


-- 
Those who do not understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
		-- Henry Spencer