Re: PROPOSAL: UISG Menu Line Standardization

[Bowie Poag <bjp primenet com>]

> 
> If programmers don't take very well to orders, why write a style guide
> with requirements in the first place?

Because programmers like order, and consistancy.
>  
> > Thank you. :) I've been working with programmers on one or more projects
> > since like '92, and it never fails -- The LAST thing that ANY of them
> > wants to do, is document. 
> 
> So what? 

Well, you'de think over the course of spending the past 6 years nearly
continuously, working with programmers from several different countries,
on several different projects, you TEND to see the common threads among
all of them, JR. There is *definately* a "programmer mentallity". The
personality of most prorgrammers will vary widely depending upon their
individual skills and disciplines, but they ALL share common threads;
Among them, the lack of interest in writing formal text documentation for
their programs. This is often their LAST concern, when developing.

> 
> Since like '92?  Which kind of programmers have you been working with?
> Nevermind, I needn't ask: amatuer ones.  Sure, they may be able to sling
> thousands of lines of code, but they're not professionals.

Heh.. WHat do you call GNOME developers? Are they professionals too? Or
the vast majority of Linux developers in general, for that matter? :) Hah,
sorry, I just really fail to see what youre getting at here, but i'll
answer your question anyway.

Since 1992, most of the coders i've worked with have been developing
things with an emphasis on graphics programming. Formal projects, not
silly little side interests and pet projects. If you wanna talk about
that, I can go back to 1988. The average age of the programmers I've
dealth with, falls usually between the ages of 22-26, almost without
exception. The youngest coder I've worked with on a project was 20.

> I dare you to walk into Oracle or some place of the like and say, "hey man
> I just like to write code, documentation sucks."  You know what kind of
> reply you'll get.

A) Professional programmers dont write documentation. Uusally, most
professional firms have specific people FOR that task, who are
familliarized with the project after it has already entered beta. How do
-I- know? Because I -am- one of those people. 


> > They feel whatever you have to write for command
> > line help should be sufficient.
> 
> Does this make it right?  When the heck was the last time a man page
> helped any normal, average user out?

Hehehehe..god, this question is so clueless that I'm not even going to
bother adressing it. 

> I would also propose that there are coders out there who feel it
> sufficient that their application only crashes 75% of the time.  Does that
> make it right?

Depends. Its fine for an alpha, or even a beta. But for most peoples
standards, its unacceptable for what most people refer to as a "stable"
release version.

> 
> > Coders are coders, thats never going to
> > change. You can only encouraget them to write the documentation in order
> > for their program to gain more acceptance in the public.  You cant force
> > them, ala a Style Guide requirement, to write dox -- They'll reject it
> > outright.
> 
> You're wrong on this one, Bowie.  You *can* force the programmer to write
> documentation.  It happens all day and all night in this industry: look at
> any software review in any magazine of a product that had shoddy
> documentation and you will see that lack of documentation is spit at. 

A) This isnt an industry. Nobody is getting paid.
B) Force a programmer to do something against their better judgement, JR..
   Then watch them laugh in your face.
C) Rules for commercial software do not apply to what we're doing. Might
   wanna swing by www.gnu.org when you've got a minute.

> And I'll bet my rear that it's the right thing to do (requiring
> documentation).

Hope you've got a spare. :)

Bowie