Re: [Evolution-hackers] PIM application suite

[Tristan O'Tierney <totierney yahoo com>]

jeff i'm not insulting you. is it an insult to say
you're ignorant to molecular biology? no. it just
means you don't know anything about it because you
haven't learned it.  unless you tell me you've taken
usability classes, conducted focus groups, and have
done much work in interface design as a direct
profession then i don't think you're adequately
experienced to make UI decisions that involve
ocntraversial changes to the program structure. 

if you think i'm wrong, look at os x, the most usable
operating system. the follow my point of view. look at
mozilla. they are splitting up into thunderbird and
firefox.  

--- Jeffrey Stedfast <fejj ximian com> wrote:
> why must you insult me? that was completely uncalled
> for.
> 
> Good day.
> 
> Jeff
> 
> On Mon, 2004-04-19 at 21:31, Tristan O'Tierney
> wrote:
> > i know i've kind of started a flamewar here and
> that
> > wasn't my intention.
> > 
> > i'm a developer, a computer scientist, as a matter
> of
> > fact. i'm deeply interested in usability.  it had
> been
> > a long time before i got a mac, and the only real
> push
> > i had was os x (because the linux->os x transition
> was
> > pretty painless since i can keep all my unix
> goodies).
> >  what i learned along the path is how sad a state
> of
> > afairs the usability of computer software is, and
> just
> > how much time and money apple puts into usability
> that
> > so many other companies/groups/developers
> disregard.
> > 
> > just as i don't care what an actor has to say
> about
> > anything but acting, i should not care about what
> a
> > developer has to say about anything other than
> > developing.  i'm not saying your opinion doesn't
> > matter, but what i am saying is you're not
> qualified
> > to argue usability when you are not the type of
> user
> > gnome is trying to target. gnome is targeting the
> > lowest common denominator -- the "i just want it
> to
> > work" group. the ones who think of a computer as
> like
> > a car. it's a black box that gets them from point
> a to
> > point b.
> > 
> > what you fail to realize is by targeting this
> group,
> > everyone benefits. even the people with tons of
> prior
> > knowledge about computers. even the developers
> benefit
> > when you target this group, because the end
> usability
> > improvements trickle down to how much work you can
> get
> > done per day, or at the very least, it reduces the
> > amount of per-domain knowledge you need to
> accomplish
> > a set of goals.
> > 
> > just because microsoft commits usability
> atrocities
> > (like outlook) does not mean they should propogate
> to
> > the OSS world.  we have a chance to do things
> right,
> > why not get it done the first time? i've seen
> outlook
> > used in the corporate world. 99% of people don't
> know
> > how to use it beyond very simple email functions,
> and
> > even then outlook displays about 15 more options
> at
> > any given time that the user will simply never
> use. 
> > that's the beauty of apple's design is that all
> these
> > PIM applications integrate so well, and yet are
> > separate from each other. this allows each
> application
> > to focus on it's given function.  evolution is not
> a
> > email program. it's a calendar/email/contacts
> program.
> > this is too much functionality to put into one
> piece
> > of software for the average gnome user.  that is
> all i
> > am saying.  that is why it should be split up by
> > default into individual focused apps.
> > 
> > --- Jeffrey Stedfast <fejj ximian com> wrote:
> > > On Sun, 2004-04-18 at 05:03, Tristan O'Tierney
> > > wrote:
> > > > > the mailer will always depend on the
> addressbook
> > > and
> > > > > calendar, so
> > > > > whether you load them into the window or not
> is
> > > > > irrelevant.
> > > > > 
> > > > > in fact, I don't see why you wouldn't just
> load
> > > them
> > > > > into the main shell
> > > > > window anyway, they're loaded!
> > > > > 
> > > > > no sense making the user run 3 apps having
> each
> > > > > component loaded into
> > > > > each of them. it just wastes more resources.
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > the GUI wastes far more resources than a
> command
> > > line,
> > > > yet the GUI is far more usable.  resources are
> > > > irrelevant here, especially when 128 megs of
> ram
> > > or
> > > > more these days for a simple PIM suite.  they
> > > should
> > > > be split up because they are different
> functions.
> > > not
> > > > because they aren't related. you simply aren't
> > > > understanding this. mail != contacts !=
> calendar.
> > > yes
> > > > they are all INTERDEPENDENT. they are even
> > > related.
> > > > but they are not the same function, it's just
> that
> > > > simple.  if you try and cram too much
> > > functionality
> > > > into one interface it's incohesive to the
> average
> > > > user.
> > > 
> > > doesn't seem to bother the average user, if it
> > > did... there wouldn't be
> > > Outlook or GroupWise or Lotus Notes or... a
> zillion
> > > other groupware
> > > suites.
> > > 
> > > in fact, you seem to be the only one (or, at
> best,
> > > one of a handful)
> > > bothered by this.
> > > 
> > > >  it's a linear function. the more options a
> user
> > > > has to choose, the more chance of failure to
> find
> > > the
> > > > option they want and the increased time to
> find
> > > said
> > > > option.
> > > 
> > > how hard is it, really, to say "I want to make
> an
> > > appointment. I need to
> > > switch to calendar because obviously mail
> doesn't do
> > > that"
> > > 
> > > you're saying the average user can't handle
> that,
> > > yet you want to split
> > > the applications which forces these users to
> have to
> > > know which
> > > application does what? it's the same bloody
> > > decision.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > >  it makes interfaces scary and bloated.
> > > 
> > > ah, bloated. the most overused and least
> understood
> > > word used when
> > > describing software.
> > > 
> > > >   i'm
> > > > not sure why you can't understand this.
> > > 
> > > I'm not sure why *you* can't understand this.
> > > 
> > > >   the key to a
> > > > good application is focus.
> > > 
> 
=== message truncated ===


	
		
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25¢
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash