Re: Prefs and window positions

[Ali Akcaagac <ali akcaagac stud fh-wilhelmshaven de>]

On 2001.07.11 00:05:21 +0200 M . Thielker wrote:
> Most window managers today aren't aware of multi-headed X servers, this is
> also true for sawfish.
> I really don't know how the WM can possibly save all window sizes because
> it really doesn't know which ones it should save, or, if it does, how?
> Where is the code to tell it to save the size and position of a compose
> window, or a message window? On my system, all Balsa windows pop up in some
> randomly chosen position with default sizes.
> 
> As far as I know, Sawfish doesn't support setting preferences for
> application windows individually, so a user is stuck with what the
> programmers think is best for her.

no, this is not true (at least if i understand your lines above) i am able
saving all my window (position, dimension, size) correctly this includes
the behaviour of balsa too. balsa mainwindow, compose window, print window
comes up all in the correct place where i stored them for sawfish, no random
popups and so on.

[snip]
> Users want to customize, make the software fit their needs, not vice-versa.
> I have been a commercial programmer for nearly 20 years, and I've collected
> quite some impressive data on user behavior and user wishes. Software that
> they have to adjust to is not on the list.
> What's needed is a flat learning curve. If someone who has formerly used
> windows and has customized his toolbar wants to have the compose new button
> on the far left, there should be a prefs setting that lets her do that. If
> there isn't she'd say: "what a piece of shit program" and go back to
> windows or lok for another email client.
> It's not only about elegant software anymore, but about day-to-day
> usability in changing environments, by user of different skill levels and
> working methods.
[snap]

i mostly agree to this but the problem is still there and i am now signing
these lines with my real name. the problem is this. gnome/kde are still far
away from competing with e.g. windows. windows applications are going through
several tests/betatesting and usecases before getting released. most of their
programmers are getting paid for what they are doing and many of them are
engineering ones, that also work that way. on gnome/kde this isn't true at all
many free volunteers are doing a different work every day, many of them are
involved into computers because of the fun they have but many of them never
worked the engineering way before. if you look through many gnome/kde apps,
then you find out yourself that most of these programs don't support things
to each other. different toolbars, different dialogs, different shortcuts etc.
its sure that all these issues are getting solved sooner or later but right
now i won't move a company to use gnome/kde. what happens, if i loose importand
data, i can't get someone to be responsible for this and i can't get any
money from him because of my lost data. there are a couple of good tutorials
on developer.gnome.org that describes how to program gnome compliant applications
but many soo called 'gnome' compliant apps don't follow the recommendet way
completely.

> Again: you can't have enough settings in prefs. Some may need to be hidden
> behind "Advanced..." buttons, providing such sensible defaults that 90% of
> the users will never touch them, not even know they're there. But the other
> 10% desperately need these options.

hmmm i dont like the idea of this. advanced prefs, beginner prefs, like in
nautilus, this is a pain. i prefer one preferences.

> On a triple-headed X server most applications fail miserably because window
> placement is not very practical. When I start XChat the main window will
> appear on the far right monitor while the channel list is on the middle one
> sometimes, on top of the main window at other times.
> But XChat has an option to set the main window's position manually, for a
> good reason: when there are 10 windows open and you open a new one, you'll
> never know where it ends up. They all look pretty much alike and 3 screens
> is a lot of real estate to search.
> Once you set that option, every window will appear in that one particular
> spot and can then be moved to whereever the _user_ wants it.
> Users need to decide such things, not window managers!

i do decide these things... sawfish supports all kinda placements of window
and the way the user wants... rightclick on the left title decoration and you
find the options howto store the current window.

> 
> I have a personal stake in this, of course: Not only am I one of the users
> suffering from balsa's inability to correctly handle multi-headed displays,
> but I also want to get a working email client that I can do my everyday
> work with. It's the unix way to get to it and help make one instead of
> carping about it. That's what I'm doing here. I never liked Micorosofts
> policies and I really dislike system crashes, but I did like the
> comfortable features of their software. I do not see any reason why this
> cannot be made part of Linux.

afaik, balsa supports common GNOME components (the components reuse way) if
balsa opens its window the gnome recomendet way, then balsa isn't responsible
anymore how the window is placed on the desktop. its the gnome component that
should take care of this.

-- 
Name....: Ali Akcaagac
Status..: Student Of Computer & Economic Science
E-Mail..: mailto:ali.akcaagac@stud.fh-wilhelmshaven.de
WWW.....: http://www.fh-wilhelmshaven.de/~akcaagaa